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Username Post: HARTFORD        (Topic#19619)
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
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12-12-16 06:14 PM - Post#215534    

"Sir, the possibility of successfully navigating an asteroid field is approximately three thousand seven hundred and twenty to one."
"Never tell me the odds!"
―C-3PO and Han Solo —

Dartmouth Basketball
Predictions Update
Dec 11, 2016
• After losing to Maine 73-68 yesterday, Dartmouth is now projected to finish the regular season 5-22 (3-11 Ivy).
• We currently rank Dartmouth as the #312 team in the country, and the #8 team in the Ivy.
• Next game: Tue, Dec 13 at #326 Hartford. Our power ratings give the Big Green a 43% chance to win.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
GIQUAKER 
Junior
Posts: 211

Reg: 02-27-06
Re: HARTFORD
12-12-16 08:11 PM - Post#215542    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

I am thinking that the team gels and it's the first win of the season.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
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Age: 51
Reg: 05-19-16
Re: HARTFORD
12-12-16 08:35 PM - Post#215549    
    In response to GIQUAKER

Let's go Big Green!
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
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Age: 51
Reg: 05-19-16
Re: HARTFORD
12-13-16 10:09 AM - Post#215653    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Big Green Game Notes

Hartford Game Notes

Listen to the game here @ 4PM

Watch the Game here @ 4PM

Follow the stats live here.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Postdoc
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Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
12-13-16 11:50 AM - Post#215669    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Go Big Green! Ivy League fans are hoping Dartmouth prevails today!

Thanks for the game details. I usually love KenPom rankings, but I don't understand how Dartmouth is ranked ahead of Hartford given the fact that Hartford beat BC in its last game and BC beat Dartmouth by 18. Since Dartmouth is currently winless, how could Dartmouth possibly have jumped ahead of a Hartford team that has won 3 games, including Sacred Heart and Rutgers (KP #132). Not meaning to be anti-Dartmouth at all, just confused.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
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12-13-16 12:23 PM - Post#215677    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

I don't have the answer for you. It's made even more curious because Kenpom.com has Hartford beating Dartmouth. The site also says Dartmouth should go 5-22 and 4-10 in the Ivy, but only shows 2 late wins in our future vs Brown & Cornell. But if we go by the current results and project by the rankings Dartmouth could conceivably go 0-27.

Thanks for supporting #oneivy. Dartmouth really is languishing now and needs all the support it can garner.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
cc66 
Postdoc
Posts: 2201

Reg: 10-09-09
12-13-16 02:05 PM - Post#215691    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

The difference in projections that you note reflects KenPom's cumulative probabilities. Say you have just a 40$ chance of winning every individual game. By individual projections, you should go 0-27, but the cumulative probabilities are such that you are likely to squeak out a few victories and not go completely winless.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
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12-13-16 02:29 PM - Post#215694    
    In response to cc66

Thanks. That makes sense.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
12-13-16 05:35 PM - Post#215740    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

I have a good feeling tonight. Doesn't happen that often. Lets get this W!

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
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Age: 51
Reg: 05-19-16
12-13-16 06:23 PM - Post#215747    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

I hope so because I've had this sickening feeling all day dreading another L.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
HARTFORD
12-13-16 11:02 PM - Post#215772    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Welp- I was incorrect. That was tough. Some pretty uninspiring play from the upperclassmen.

Interestingly enough, I was able to take a look at the Hollinger Player efficiency ratings for the ivy league (PER) and out of 67 players available to rating (players averaging above 6 MPG) Dartmouth has only two people inside the top 50. These two are Giulian (#36, 12.35) and Boudreaux (#7, 20.80).

Ike (#54, 8.81), Taylor (#56, 8.53)and Miles (#60, 7.10), presumed starters and upperclassmen, are literally at the bottom of the barrel for all players in terms of PER. Read into that as you will, but I think it might be time to start transitioning some of their minutes.

The one caveat is that PER isn't that great at judging defensive performance, but if you've watched at all this year you know that obviously isn't the case here.

I can diagnose the problem, but I certainly dont have a good solution.

Edited by SomeDartmouthStudent on 12-13-16 11:03 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
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Re: HARTFORD
12-13-16 11:19 PM - Post#215774    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

We're playing all the wrong guys. For all the wrong minutes. That's not the players fault.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
12-14-16 12:09 AM - Post#215777    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

No it isnt. I don't know what scenario is more concerning.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
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12-14-16 12:11 AM - Post#215778    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

What are the coaches saying? If anything?
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
picknroll 
Freshman
Posts: 38

Reg: 11-21-04
HARTFORD
12-14-16 12:14 AM - Post#215780    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

A few random observations:
1) Boudreaux has four assists in nine games. Admittedly, assists are not the be-all of statistical categories, but I'd think he'd have more than that if only by accident. I remember seeing something from McLaughlin in the preseason about going through Evan to try to get others more involved. That probably went out the window when the offense struggled, but does he make the players around him better to any meaningful degree?
2) When the player who has taken the second-most shots on your team has the lowest shooting percentage among players who have logged significant minutes, that's a coaching issue. And when that player has also taken the most 3s on your team and is shooting the lowest percentage from behind the arc, that's also a coaching problem. Specifically, that's the kind of thing that makes it look like the coach is not in control of what his players do on the floor. And that, in turn can have an impact on team chemistry if other players think a coach isn't willing to hold one of their teammates accountable. It's the sort of thing that can cause players to lose respect for their coach.
3) Speaking of accountability: At what point does Sheehy get held accountable for the McLaughlin hire? Cormier might not have been anybody's choice to lead a chorus of Kumbya, but give the man his due – he could recruit, he could game plan, and he could manage a game. If he's coaching this pretty talented team, I have no doubt they're no worse than 3-6, with wins over Marist, Maine and Hartford, probably Longwood, and maybe even Fairfield. 0-9? Are you kidding me.

Edited by picknroll on 12-14-16 12:16 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
12-14-16 12:17 AM - Post#215781    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

I don't have a ton of insight. I know after previous games it was very much a keep moving, keep improving message. Not sure how that will change moving forward.

Judging by some of the lineup decisions and minute distributions, not much seems to be changing for the better.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
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Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 12:20 AM - Post#215782    
    In response to picknroll

This now is an unmitigated disaster and self inflicted which is the worst kind.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
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12-14-16 12:21 AM - Post#215783    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

What's the definition of insanity again????
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
whitakk 
Masters Student
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Age: 32
Reg: 11-11-14
12-14-16 12:59 AM - Post#215784    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Dartmouth has 11 total steals in the last three games. That's not going to work.

I don't know exactly what McLaughlin's role was at Northeastern, but their defense got much less aggressive right when he arrived. That was fine with Scott Eatherton protecting the rim. But nobody on this team can block shots like that, and their defenders aren't good enough to stay on an island.

Maybe the more conservative style works in the long run, but it's all wrong for this team.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
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12-14-16 01:06 AM - Post#215785    
    In response to whitakk

I agree 1000%. The results indicate that the system doesn't work for the players he has. The players he has do have some talent.

Right now the approach is that of a coach who is hell bent on pursuing a non effective strategy with the wrong players. Again the results speak volumes. This team should not have collapsed like this from last year to this year.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
Go Green 
PhD Student
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Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 09:04 AM - Post#215790    
    In response to picknroll

  • picknroll Said:

3) Speaking of accountability: At what point does Sheehy get held accountable for the McLaughlin hire? .



Not until McLaughlin has had a few years to implement his view of Dartmouth basketball.

Princeton football went through this exact same thing when they fired Roger Hughes and brought in Bob Surace. Princeton went 1-18 under Surace the first two seasons, but turned it around in year three.

It sucked to wait to get there. But McLaughlin (and Sheehy) deserves that much.

 
Go Green 
PhD Student
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Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
12-14-16 09:06 AM - Post#215792    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

  • SomeDartmouthStudent Said:


Judging by some of the lineup decisions and minute distributions, not much seems to be changing for the better.



I was only able to watch the last minute. On our last full possession, it seemed like nobody wanted to take the shot. Sure enough, shot clock violation.

What happened there?

 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
12-14-16 09:13 AM - Post#215793    
    In response to Go Green

I think I would disagree with giving him a few years. I think if you fail to win a game this year you have no choice.

They aren't losing because they don't have the players.

On that last possession I have absolutely no idea what was going on.

 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 09:18 AM - Post#215794    
    In response to picknroll

  • picknroll Said:
A few random observations:
1) Boudreaux has four assists in nine games. Admittedly, assists are not the be-all of statistical categories, but I'd think he'd have more than that if only by accident. I remember seeing something from McLaughlin in the preseason about going through Evan to try to get others more involved. That probably went out the window when the offense struggled, but does he make the players around him better to any meaningful degree?
2) When the player who has taken the second-most shots on your team has the lowest shooting percentage among players who have logged significant minutes, that's a coaching issue. And when that player has also taken the most 3s on your team and is shooting the lowest percentage from behind the arc, that's also a coaching problem. Specifically, that's the kind of thing that makes it look like the coach is not in control of what his players do on the floor. And that, in turn can have an impact on team chemistry if other players think a coach isn't willing to hold one of their teammates accountable. It's the sort of thing that can cause players to lose respect for their coach.
3) Speaking of accountability: At what point does Sheehy get held accountable for the McLaughlin hire? Cormier might not have been anybody's choice to lead a chorus of Kumbya, but give the man his due – he could recruit, he could game plan, and he could manage a game. If he's coaching this pretty talented team, I have no doubt they're no worse than 3-6, with wins over Marist, Maine and Hartford, probably Longwood, and maybe even Fairfield. 0-9? Are you kidding me.




-I can agree with this. Having watched all the games pretty intently, Boudreaux should have way more assists. He gets rid of the ball pretty well when hes doubled, and makes good passes in their possessions. We are just shooting poorly, and taking poor shots.

-With point 2, the same argument can be made as to why you have a player with one of the lowest PER's in the league to be logging 30 minutes a game.


-I miss Cormier a whole lot, which means something because I wasn't particularly fond of him when he was here. I'm under the opinion that there are points where accountability is taken. When we finish this season I will be very curious to see what, if anything, happens.

Edited by SomeDartmouthStudent on 12-14-16 09:33 AM. Reason for edit: mispelling

 
Go Green 
PhD Student
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Reg: 04-22-10
12-14-16 09:30 AM - Post#215797    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

  • SomeDartmouthStudent Said:


On that last possession I have absolutely no idea what was going on.



If some pro-Cormier people wanted to be #%$@, they'd show a clip of that last possession, and then a clip of the end of the 2014 Yale game in Hanover.

And send them to Sheehy.



 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 09:50 AM - Post#215800    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

One note on the coaches and playing time. I think it is pretty clear that Wright would be playing around 30 mpg with Cormier, too. That's what happened last year.

After Boudreaux and Wright, I think it is fair to wonder how time might be divided differently. But those two play no matter what. Wright had a 102 ORAT last year and decent percentages.

I suspect that Cormier would spread the rest of the playing time around among more guys, but that is just a guess. If anyone was going to see a bump, it would have been Johnson and G. Smith.


 
mrjames 
Professor
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Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
12-14-16 09:53 AM - Post#215801    
    In response to Go Green

Paul Cormier's first year in Hanover was a -17.28 SRS (think of it as efficiency margin). McLaughlin is currently at -17.09 SRS. So from that angle, one might make the argument that you need to give him time - Cormier churned out great results in two stints in Hanover after that rough start.

BUT...

When Cormier took over, Dartmouth had five straight seasons of negative, double-digit SRS immediately preceding his hire (an average of about -14). When McLaughlin took over, Dartmouth was coming off its 2nd, 4th and 5th best showings of the AI era.

I'll never understand why Cormier was let go. I didn't understand it when I heard the rumblings during the season. I didn't get it when I had to begrudgingly predict it was going to happen. And it still didn't make sense after it happened. It's extremely early to judge the decision a complete failure, but if you're a Bayesian who had very pessimistic priors going into this season, the early evidence has done nothing but solidify that view.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
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12-14-16 10:37 AM - Post#215810    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:
Paul Cormier's first year in Hanover was a -17.28 SRS (think of it as efficiency margin). McLaughlin is currently at -17.09 SRS. So from that angle, one might make the argument that you need to give him time - Cormier churned out great results in two stints in Hanover after that rough start.

BUT...

When Cormier took over, Dartmouth had five straight seasons of negative, double-digit SRS immediately preceding his hire (an average of about -14). When McLaughlin took over, Dartmouth was coming off its 2nd, 4th and 5th best showings of the AI era.

I'll never understand why Cormier was let go. I didn't understand it when I heard the rumblings during the season. I didn't get it when I had to begrudgingly predict it was going to happen. And it still didn't make sense after it happened. It's extremely early to judge the decision a complete failure, but if you're a Bayesian who had very pessimistic priors going into this season, the early evidence has done nothing but solidify that view.



Given that this coach is taking over a team that was in much better position than when Cormier took over makes the two difficult to reconcile. The expectations were that this coach was going to take them to the next level. This is not happening.

The only reason to consider keeping this coach beyond this season is if the players are developing. I suspect , given the results, the players are regressing. On the surface, it was a big point of emphasis that this coach was brought in to develop players. At this juncture Cormier's firing seems more politically driven.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeGuy 
Professor
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Reg: 11-22-04
12-14-16 10:53 AM - Post#215814    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

I'll throw out some unfounded speculation. My guess is that firing a connected and well-respected coach who seemed to be in the process of turning the program around had an impact on both the search for a replacement and the new coach's search for assistants. The fact that Dartmouth came up with such an inexperienced staff suggests to me that they were having trouble finding experienced assistants. Certainly some of that could be the way that folks in the industry thought Cormier was treated.



 
SomeGuy 
Professor
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Reg: 11-22-04
12-14-16 10:56 AM - Post#215816    
    In response to mrjames

I believe the apt word you used at the time was "myopic."



 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
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Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 11:02 AM - Post#215818    
    In response to Go Green

  • Go Green Said:
  • picknroll Said:

3) Speaking of accountability: At what point does Sheehy get held accountable for the McLaughlin hire? .



Not until McLaughlin has had a few years to implement his view of Dartmouth basketball.

Princeton football went through this exact same thing when they fired Roger Hughes and brought in Bob Surace. Princeton went 1-18 under Surace the first two seasons, but turned it around in year three.

It sucked to wait to get there. But McLaughlin (and Sheehy) deserves that much.



I disagree strongly with allowing this to proceed beyond one season. The only precedent I could find was in 1917-18 Dartmouth Coach Fred Walker led the team to a 0-26 record. That was his only season. You can't in good conscience allow a coach who took a team that was on the upswing and then lead them to the bottom of the NCAA D-I and the Ivy league to have more time.

The Ivy League is on the upswing. Just recently we were all hoping for a "2 bid Ivy". Dartmouth's performance is not doing anything to lift the league. Maybe the Ivy League office puts pressure on Dartmouth to do something if this continues to go pear-shaped?


"...no excuses - only results!”


 
Go Green 
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12-14-16 11:10 AM - Post#215820    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

[quote=GoBigGreenBasketba llThe only reason to consider keeping this coach beyond this season is if the players are developing. I suspect , given the results, the players are regressing. On the surface, it was a big point of emphasis that this coach was brought in to develop players. At this juncture Cormier's firing seems more politically driven.



I have to agree with this. The best argument that was tossed out justifying Cormier's dismissal is that some of his recruits showed a lot of promise as freshmen, but never really got (that) much better.

Thus far, McLaughlin has not shown that is better at player development than Cormier.

 
Go Green 
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Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 11:12 AM - Post#215821    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

  • GoBigGreenBasketball Said:
You can't in good conscience allow a coach who took a team that was on the upswing and then lead them to the bottom of the NCAA D-I and the Ivy league to have more time.







It's debatable whether Princeton football was "on the upswing" when Hughes was let go. But Surace took them from a middle-of-the-pack Ivy to jokes his first two seasons.

And then things started clicking.

Edited by Go Green on 12-14-16 11:16 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Go Green 
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12-14-16 11:16 AM - Post#215823    
    In response to SomeGuy

  • SomeGuy Said:
I'll throw out some unfounded speculation. My guess is that firing a connected and well-respected coach who seemed to be in the process of turning the program around had an impact on both the search for a replacement and the new coach's search for assistants. The fact that Dartmouth came up with such an inexperienced staff suggests to me that they were having trouble finding experienced assistants. Certainly some of that could be the way that folks in the industry thought Cormier was treated.





If there were targets that rebuffed Sheehy, they weren't made public (as far as I know).


 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
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Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 11:26 AM - Post#215825    
    In response to Go Green

What I've seen from just the brief glimpses of the freshmen, in particular of late Emery, has been nothing but positive given they are freshman. That we hadn't seen Emery until now speaks loudly. I suspect that if Cormier had Emery in practice he'd play mins like Evan did his freshman year and Wright before him. Cormier seemed to play players who would give him a shot at winning despite their seniority or time with the program. Hence he had two IVY ROY. Meanwhile over at Harvard they are playing their talented frosh in some of the biggest games of the nonconference schedule. SMDH.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
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12-14-16 01:56 PM - Post#215839    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:
Paul Cormier's first year in Hanover was a -17.28 SRS (think of it as efficiency margin). McLaughlin is currently at -17.09 SRS. So from that angle, one might make the argument that you need to give him time - Cormier churned out great results in two stints in Hanover after that rough start.

BUT...

When Cormier took over, Dartmouth had five straight seasons of negative, double-digit SRS immediately preceding his hire (an average of about -14). When McLaughlin took over, Dartmouth was coming off its 2nd, 4th and 5th best showings of the AI era.

I'll never understand why Cormier was let go. I didn't understand it when I heard the rumblings during the season. I didn't get it when I had to begrudgingly predict it was going to happen. And it still didn't make sense after it happened. It's extremely early to judge the decision a complete failure, but if you're a Bayesian who had very pessimistic priors going into this season, the early evidence has done nothing but solidify that view.



Logically thinking, Cormier would not have built a schedule that he didn't believe this team of returning and incoming players couldn't excel in. I really thought the preseason the SOS for Dartmouth was too low based on this line of thought.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
rbg 
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12-14-16 02:03 PM - Post#215840    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Sorry to see Dartmouth continuing with the losing streak. I feel bad for the players and the coaches.

McLaughlin was hired in late April, one week after Cornell chose Brian Earl. It may have been one of the last openings filled.

According to a report at Hoop Dirt on 4/7/16, the names floated were Rob Jeter (former Head Coach at Milwaukee), Shaun Morris (Associate Head Coach at Boston University), Dane Fischer (Assistant Coach at George Mason), Dave McLaughlin (Northeastern Associate Head Coach), Matt Kingsley (Yale Assistant Coach), Brian Earl (Associate Head Coach at Princeton), and Kevin Kuwik (Dayton Assistant Coach). Also, it was possible that a current America East Coach and MAAC Coach were in the mix.

The MAAC coach was probably Mike Maker of Marist, who was the head coach at Williams when Sheehy was the AD for the Ephs. Also, Maker was an assistant coach at Dartmouth from 1991-2002.

The America East coach was probably UMass-Lowell's Pat Duquette, a former captain at Williams College playing under then-Coach Sheehy.

It is possible that Sheehy was rebuffed by the coaches with more experience and/or incredibly impressed with Coach McLaughlin.

McLaughlin has experience as a head coach at Stonehill College. Although a Division II school, he did have a fair amount of success there - 5 NCAA appearance in 9 season, including 2 Final Fours. He also was Northeastern's recruiting coordinator for the previous three seasons.

So, McLaughlin goes to a school that has not put in the same financial resources as many others in its own league. He was hired late in the game without the ability to choose any of this year's recruits. He is unfamiliar with the unique aspects of playing the Ivy League conference schedule, and ends up hiring a staff of inexperienced coaches.

While the results have been far from positive, it seems premature to talk about firing a person who was put into an unwinnable situation for this year. The main exception I would consider is if there were significant behavioral issues with the coach, the staff or the team. The only other exception is if a more experienced and successful Division 1 coach was definitely available.

Since there has been no word on any off-the-court problems and no experienced coach lobbying for the job, it seems unfair to talk about dismissing the coach without any chance at getting his own recruits on board and time to implement his system.

No one says that Dartmouth needs to wait six years like Penn did with Jerome Allen or Cornell did with Bill Courtney, but six weeks seems a bit early to throw in the towel.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
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Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 02:03 PM - Post#215841    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Well, I won't say you should never fire a coach after one season, but I think you'd just be repeating the Cormier mistake by doing so. Now that this path has been chosen, I think you have to stay on it and see how it plays out. Starting anew next year basically closes the window on competing with Boudreaux.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
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HARTFORD
12-14-16 02:39 PM - Post#215842    
    In response to rbg

I'm pretty certain that the plan wasn't a wait to win situation. You don't gamble with a star player like Boudreaux on your roster, you make hay while the sun shines! I'm 100% certain the plan was to win now with Boudreaux on the roster, not wait until McLaughlin has "his" players. When you take the job he has his players.

His current incoming recruits are not on the same level as Boudreaux. The recruits Cormier left him with on paper are better than the ones he has coming. If they can't do more with what they have, they surely won't be able to do more with less. Plus with a start like this you're not doing anything to improve your ability to recruit higher caliber players.

I'm sure McLaughlin is a nice guy probably has a family. But this is sport and business. You could easily argue, and some have [mrjames], that Cormier should have had more time. Also consider that these are not scholarship students. These families are paying something for school, and athletics takes time away from academics. Remember this is the Ivy League. I would not be surprised if there are conversations being had among players and their families about focusing more academics and less on losing basketball.
"...no excuses - only results!”


Edited by GoBigGreenBasketball on 12-14-16 02:57 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
HARTFORD
12-14-16 03:12 PM - Post#215844    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

I think I would echo the sentiment that we were in a win now or send Dartmouth back to the depths of the NCAA/Ivy League at the beginning of this season. We had developed a solid foundation and were attracting good recruits, just as the Ivy's as a whole were starting to thrive.

Boudreaux is the shining star right now and we are essentially wasting the time he has left in Hanover. Mclaughlin seems like a fantastic guy, but this is a completely unexpected (almost unfathomable) regression. I don't think its premature to fire someone if their performance is this far below expectations. If we go winless, which is shockingly a possibility based on projections, you cant retain a coach like that and expect a good return on recruiting/ or expect current players to stick around.

Edited by SomeDartmouthStudent on 12-14-16 03:13 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 805

Age: 51
Reg: 05-19-16
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 04:00 PM - Post#215859    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

Judging by the message board's reaction/response the Green's losing to Maine at home, then Hartford in the closing possessions, and being down 0-9 with no foreseeable winnable games is the tipping point. Coach McLaughlin really needed to win that home game.

I feel bad for the coach but way worse for the players. Coaching is a tough job...that's why most of us do it from the couch. But sport is a pure performance driven endeavor. You win or you lose. If this season continues on the current trajectory not making a change is a commitment to failure. Are we telling the existing players that the incoming class is the group to turn the tide, when the tide was turning before this year??? I hope they can turn it around, but if they don't Dartmouth can't compound the situation by extending another year. If they do go for naught on the season and bring the coach back then expect folks to bail. That would not be a good look.

If we were running a relay race Sheehy has passed the baton to a guy who is running the wrong way. It's unlikely that you can then turnaround and make up ground.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 04:26 PM - Post#215864    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

I know it's hard to imagine when you're 0-9, but there is simply no way that Dartmouth goes winless this year. I know the projections look bad at this point, but remember that a team with a 40% chance in every game will be expected to lose every game. However, in a 30 game season, they'll win about 12 games (well, math isn't my thing, but it's something like that). Dartmouth may not be favored again this year, but it won't matter -- you'll win some games.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 04:28 PM - Post#215865    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Watching from afar, I think the issue was the decision to pass the baton, and not that the wrong guy was given the baton. Now that you have handed it off, I think you have to let him run with it. Otherwise, you end up like the Cleveland Browns.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 04:36 PM - Post#215867    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Sorry if I'm just picking on your phrasing here, but I don't really get the "Cormier should have had more time" comment. I just don't see how anyone could have the opinion that he was failing. Looking at it historically, he had to be coming pretty close to maximizing what it was possible to do from his starting point.

Both in terms of the record and in terms of player development, I guess I have trouble envisioning what was expected. The team was moving steadily forward, with a slight dip last year after a key player unexpectedly graduated. Throwing the coach out after that dip seemed short-sighted at the time, and only seems moreso now.



 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 805

Age: 51
Reg: 05-19-16
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 04:58 PM - Post#215870    
    In response to SomeGuy

I didn't intend to suggest Cormier was failing. To the contrary I believe he was doing a great job and that the program was headed the right direction. I had the wind knocked out of me when he was let go.

My comment was in reply to [rbg] suggestion that it seems unfair and that the new coach needs more time to implement his system. Cormier was doing a great job and deserved "time" to see it through. He was let go to soon.


  • rbg Said:
So, McLaughlin goes to a school that has not put in the same financial resources as many others in its own league. He was hired late in the game without the ability to choose any of this year's recruits. He is unfamiliar with the unique aspects of playing the Ivy League conference schedule, and ends up hiring a staff of inexperienced coaches.

While the results have been far from positive, it seems premature to talk about firing a person who was put into an unwinnable situation for this year. The main exception I would consider is if there were significant behavioral issues with the coach, the staff or the team. The only other exception is if a more experienced and successful Division 1 coach was definitely available.

Since there has been no word on any off-the-court problems and no experienced coach lobbying for the job, it seems unfair to talk about dismissing the coach without any chance at getting his own recruits on board and time to implement his system.

No one says that Dartmouth needs to wait six years like Penn did with Jerome Allen or Cornell did with Bill Courtney, but six weeks seems a bit early to throw in the towel.



"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
12-14-16 05:54 PM - Post#215889    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Obviously there is a "sky is falling thing" going on right now. But if you take a deeper look, McLaughlin isn't even demonstrating coaching strengths within games.

It's one thing to lose every game and slowly get better by doing it, yet its a completely different scenario to make no changes (or even get worse) as you continue. Having been at most of the games- there are just some baffling decisions being made. For example, the way they decided to handle to zone last night.

I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet, but the whole waiting to see if it gets better isn't somewhere I want to be.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
12-14-16 10:14 PM - Post#215927    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

I haven't watched any of Dartmouth's games this year, but I was baffled at the firing of Cormier at the time and underwhelmed at the resume of his replacement. The change seemed to be one of those new-AD-wants-to-get-his-o wn-guy-in-there sorts of things, because Cormier had all teams on their toes going to play Dartmouth. (As a Boehm fan, I do suspect that his absence might have had more of an impact than some would realize, which would affect any coach, but not to the tune of 0-9 against the schedule thus far.)

 
flinder 
Freshman
Posts: 72

Age: 45
Reg: 11-16-16
12-14-16 11:10 PM - Post#215931    
    In response to SRP

I don't know if this helps, but I think Cormier has a complicated history with the program. Alumni from his first stint seem to feel much more warmly towards Faucher. I don't know if PC changed his approach with his second term, but I do know that, when McLaughlin was hired, several alumni met with him to talk about establishing a network of basketball alumni to help members of the current team find opportunities upon graduation. That didn't exist, and it doesn't seem like the sort of thing Cormier would have enjoyed cultivating; he doesn't strike me as a schmoozer.

Much as the direction of the team this year is depressing and a waste of Boudreaux, I think it's likely unwise to fire McLaughlin after one season. The message it sends to players (and potential replacement coaches) about instability in the program would outweigh the benefits of firing a rookie coach because of one terrible season. (That said, I live in the Boston area and have bought tickets to see the Harvard game each of the past 3-4 years, but I can't stomach it this year.) You can't attract a smart, talented coach to Dartmouth the same way you can get them to Harvard, Princeton, or Penn. Sheehy has to find the diamond in the rough; so far this year, we're still looking.

 
dmbkfan 
Pre-Frosh
Posts: 3

Reg: 11-07-16
Re: HARTFORD
12-15-16 12:36 PM - Post#215947    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

Where did you find the listing of the Ivy PER?

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 805

Age: 51
Reg: 05-19-16
12-15-16 12:39 PM - Post#215948    
    In response to flinder

  • Quote:
“Paul did a really good job at getting us out of the mud and being more competitive, but in my judgement, it was time for someone else to take us to the next level,” Sheehy said. “Paul worked incredibly hard and diligently here and he’s leaving the program far better off than when he took it over.”



If this season doesn't reverse course, the AD should be compelled to make the necessary changes, especially after public statements like the one above. Who's going to own driving the program back into the "mud". Surely this not the next level anyone was planning on going to.

"What to do with a mistake--recognize it, admit it, learn from it, forget it." - Dean Smith
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
Re: HARTFORD
12-15-16 01:42 PM - Post#215956    
    In response to dmbkfan

Hollinger PER-Ivy League

It is price locked to ESPN insider, so not sure how to best get it over here.. Interesting of note, it has been updated since the most recent game and Taylor (#59), Miles (#62), and Ike (#58 have all fallen. Wes and Ian moved into spots below #50 at #46 and #44.

Three of our (sometimes) starters are coming in among the 10 worst players in the league.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 805

Age: 51
Reg: 05-19-16
Re: HARTFORD
12-15-16 02:06 PM - Post#215961    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

Thanks
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
12-15-16 02:21 PM - Post#215965    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

For some reason I cant edit the above post. Saying "worst players" is a little harsh. It's been a rough start for those guys.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 805

Age: 51
Reg: 05-19-16
12-15-16 02:23 PM - Post#215966    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

I don't believe you can edit a post after someone replies. sorry bout that
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
12-15-16 02:35 PM - Post#215967    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Ah, yeah that makes sense. Regardless its a bad look. As to your point, i agree that we should hold Mclaughlin and Sheehy to a higher standard after saying we have escaped the mud and reached a higher level.

 
Stuart Suss 
PhD Student
Posts: 1439

Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
12-15-16 04:53 PM - Post#215985    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

Compare the Hollinger numbers to this Draft Express chart.

Sort the numbers by whatever category you prefer.



 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
HARTFORD
12-15-16 05:16 PM - Post#215990    
    In response to Stuart Suss

That is perfect. PER is the same because I believe Hollinger came up with that metric. Good way to view it for free, thanks!

It does only show the top 5 players in terms of minutes, but that still gives a pretty good look.

 
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