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Username Post: HARTFORD        (Topic#19619)
Go Green 
PhD Student
Posts: 1124

Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 09:04 AM - Post#215790    
    In response to picknroll

  • picknroll Said:

3) Speaking of accountability: At what point does Sheehy get held accountable for the McLaughlin hire? .



Not until McLaughlin has had a few years to implement his view of Dartmouth basketball.

Princeton football went through this exact same thing when they fired Roger Hughes and brought in Bob Surace. Princeton went 1-18 under Surace the first two seasons, but turned it around in year three.

It sucked to wait to get there. But McLaughlin (and Sheehy) deserves that much.

 
Go Green 
PhD Student
Posts: 1124

Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
12-14-16 09:06 AM - Post#215792    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

  • SomeDartmouthStudent Said:


Judging by some of the lineup decisions and minute distributions, not much seems to be changing for the better.



I was only able to watch the last minute. On our last full possession, it seemed like nobody wanted to take the shot. Sure enough, shot clock violation.

What happened there?

 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
12-14-16 09:13 AM - Post#215793    
    In response to Go Green

I think I would disagree with giving him a few years. I think if you fail to win a game this year you have no choice.

They aren't losing because they don't have the players.

On that last possession I have absolutely no idea what was going on.

 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 09:18 AM - Post#215794    
    In response to picknroll

  • picknroll Said:
A few random observations:
1) Boudreaux has four assists in nine games. Admittedly, assists are not the be-all of statistical categories, but I'd think he'd have more than that if only by accident. I remember seeing something from McLaughlin in the preseason about going through Evan to try to get others more involved. That probably went out the window when the offense struggled, but does he make the players around him better to any meaningful degree?
2) When the player who has taken the second-most shots on your team has the lowest shooting percentage among players who have logged significant minutes, that's a coaching issue. And when that player has also taken the most 3s on your team and is shooting the lowest percentage from behind the arc, that's also a coaching problem. Specifically, that's the kind of thing that makes it look like the coach is not in control of what his players do on the floor. And that, in turn can have an impact on team chemistry if other players think a coach isn't willing to hold one of their teammates accountable. It's the sort of thing that can cause players to lose respect for their coach.
3) Speaking of accountability: At what point does Sheehy get held accountable for the McLaughlin hire? Cormier might not have been anybody's choice to lead a chorus of Kumbya, but give the man his due – he could recruit, he could game plan, and he could manage a game. If he's coaching this pretty talented team, I have no doubt they're no worse than 3-6, with wins over Marist, Maine and Hartford, probably Longwood, and maybe even Fairfield. 0-9? Are you kidding me.




-I can agree with this. Having watched all the games pretty intently, Boudreaux should have way more assists. He gets rid of the ball pretty well when hes doubled, and makes good passes in their possessions. We are just shooting poorly, and taking poor shots.

-With point 2, the same argument can be made as to why you have a player with one of the lowest PER's in the league to be logging 30 minutes a game.


-I miss Cormier a whole lot, which means something because I wasn't particularly fond of him when he was here. I'm under the opinion that there are points where accountability is taken. When we finish this season I will be very curious to see what, if anything, happens.

Edited by SomeDartmouthStudent on 12-14-16 09:33 AM. Reason for edit: mispelling

 
Go Green 
PhD Student
Posts: 1124

Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
12-14-16 09:30 AM - Post#215797    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

  • SomeDartmouthStudent Said:


On that last possession I have absolutely no idea what was going on.



If some pro-Cormier people wanted to be #%$@, they'd show a clip of that last possession, and then a clip of the end of the 2014 Yale game in Hanover.

And send them to Sheehy.



 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 09:50 AM - Post#215800    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

One note on the coaches and playing time. I think it is pretty clear that Wright would be playing around 30 mpg with Cormier, too. That's what happened last year.

After Boudreaux and Wright, I think it is fair to wonder how time might be divided differently. But those two play no matter what. Wright had a 102 ORAT last year and decent percentages.

I suspect that Cormier would spread the rest of the playing time around among more guys, but that is just a guess. If anyone was going to see a bump, it would have been Johnson and G. Smith.


 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
12-14-16 09:53 AM - Post#215801    
    In response to Go Green

Paul Cormier's first year in Hanover was a -17.28 SRS (think of it as efficiency margin). McLaughlin is currently at -17.09 SRS. So from that angle, one might make the argument that you need to give him time - Cormier churned out great results in two stints in Hanover after that rough start.

BUT...

When Cormier took over, Dartmouth had five straight seasons of negative, double-digit SRS immediately preceding his hire (an average of about -14). When McLaughlin took over, Dartmouth was coming off its 2nd, 4th and 5th best showings of the AI era.

I'll never understand why Cormier was let go. I didn't understand it when I heard the rumblings during the season. I didn't get it when I had to begrudgingly predict it was going to happen. And it still didn't make sense after it happened. It's extremely early to judge the decision a complete failure, but if you're a Bayesian who had very pessimistic priors going into this season, the early evidence has done nothing but solidify that view.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 805

Age: 51
Reg: 05-19-16
12-14-16 10:37 AM - Post#215810    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:
Paul Cormier's first year in Hanover was a -17.28 SRS (think of it as efficiency margin). McLaughlin is currently at -17.09 SRS. So from that angle, one might make the argument that you need to give him time - Cormier churned out great results in two stints in Hanover after that rough start.

BUT...

When Cormier took over, Dartmouth had five straight seasons of negative, double-digit SRS immediately preceding his hire (an average of about -14). When McLaughlin took over, Dartmouth was coming off its 2nd, 4th and 5th best showings of the AI era.

I'll never understand why Cormier was let go. I didn't understand it when I heard the rumblings during the season. I didn't get it when I had to begrudgingly predict it was going to happen. And it still didn't make sense after it happened. It's extremely early to judge the decision a complete failure, but if you're a Bayesian who had very pessimistic priors going into this season, the early evidence has done nothing but solidify that view.



Given that this coach is taking over a team that was in much better position than when Cormier took over makes the two difficult to reconcile. The expectations were that this coach was going to take them to the next level. This is not happening.

The only reason to consider keeping this coach beyond this season is if the players are developing. I suspect , given the results, the players are regressing. On the surface, it was a big point of emphasis that this coach was brought in to develop players. At this juncture Cormier's firing seems more politically driven.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
12-14-16 10:53 AM - Post#215814    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

I'll throw out some unfounded speculation. My guess is that firing a connected and well-respected coach who seemed to be in the process of turning the program around had an impact on both the search for a replacement and the new coach's search for assistants. The fact that Dartmouth came up with such an inexperienced staff suggests to me that they were having trouble finding experienced assistants. Certainly some of that could be the way that folks in the industry thought Cormier was treated.



 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
12-14-16 10:56 AM - Post#215816    
    In response to mrjames

I believe the apt word you used at the time was "myopic."



 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 805

Age: 51
Reg: 05-19-16
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 11:02 AM - Post#215818    
    In response to Go Green

  • Go Green Said:
  • picknroll Said:

3) Speaking of accountability: At what point does Sheehy get held accountable for the McLaughlin hire? .



Not until McLaughlin has had a few years to implement his view of Dartmouth basketball.

Princeton football went through this exact same thing when they fired Roger Hughes and brought in Bob Surace. Princeton went 1-18 under Surace the first two seasons, but turned it around in year three.

It sucked to wait to get there. But McLaughlin (and Sheehy) deserves that much.



I disagree strongly with allowing this to proceed beyond one season. The only precedent I could find was in 1917-18 Dartmouth Coach Fred Walker led the team to a 0-26 record. That was his only season. You can't in good conscience allow a coach who took a team that was on the upswing and then lead them to the bottom of the NCAA D-I and the Ivy league to have more time.

The Ivy League is on the upswing. Just recently we were all hoping for a "2 bid Ivy". Dartmouth's performance is not doing anything to lift the league. Maybe the Ivy League office puts pressure on Dartmouth to do something if this continues to go pear-shaped?


"...no excuses - only results!”


 
Go Green 
PhD Student
Posts: 1124

Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
12-14-16 11:10 AM - Post#215820    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

[quote=GoBigGreenBasketba llThe only reason to consider keeping this coach beyond this season is if the players are developing. I suspect , given the results, the players are regressing. On the surface, it was a big point of emphasis that this coach was brought in to develop players. At this juncture Cormier's firing seems more politically driven.



I have to agree with this. The best argument that was tossed out justifying Cormier's dismissal is that some of his recruits showed a lot of promise as freshmen, but never really got (that) much better.

Thus far, McLaughlin has not shown that is better at player development than Cormier.

 
Go Green 
PhD Student
Posts: 1124

Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 11:12 AM - Post#215821    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

  • GoBigGreenBasketball Said:
You can't in good conscience allow a coach who took a team that was on the upswing and then lead them to the bottom of the NCAA D-I and the Ivy league to have more time.







It's debatable whether Princeton football was "on the upswing" when Hughes was let go. But Surace took them from a middle-of-the-pack Ivy to jokes his first two seasons.

And then things started clicking.

Edited by Go Green on 12-14-16 11:16 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Go Green 
PhD Student
Posts: 1124

Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
12-14-16 11:16 AM - Post#215823    
    In response to SomeGuy

  • SomeGuy Said:
I'll throw out some unfounded speculation. My guess is that firing a connected and well-respected coach who seemed to be in the process of turning the program around had an impact on both the search for a replacement and the new coach's search for assistants. The fact that Dartmouth came up with such an inexperienced staff suggests to me that they were having trouble finding experienced assistants. Certainly some of that could be the way that folks in the industry thought Cormier was treated.





If there were targets that rebuffed Sheehy, they weren't made public (as far as I know).


 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 805

Age: 51
Reg: 05-19-16
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 11:26 AM - Post#215825    
    In response to Go Green

What I've seen from just the brief glimpses of the freshmen, in particular of late Emery, has been nothing but positive given they are freshman. That we hadn't seen Emery until now speaks loudly. I suspect that if Cormier had Emery in practice he'd play mins like Evan did his freshman year and Wright before him. Cormier seemed to play players who would give him a shot at winning despite their seniority or time with the program. Hence he had two IVY ROY. Meanwhile over at Harvard they are playing their talented frosh in some of the biggest games of the nonconference schedule. SMDH.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 805

Age: 51
Reg: 05-19-16
12-14-16 01:56 PM - Post#215839    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:
Paul Cormier's first year in Hanover was a -17.28 SRS (think of it as efficiency margin). McLaughlin is currently at -17.09 SRS. So from that angle, one might make the argument that you need to give him time - Cormier churned out great results in two stints in Hanover after that rough start.

BUT...

When Cormier took over, Dartmouth had five straight seasons of negative, double-digit SRS immediately preceding his hire (an average of about -14). When McLaughlin took over, Dartmouth was coming off its 2nd, 4th and 5th best showings of the AI era.

I'll never understand why Cormier was let go. I didn't understand it when I heard the rumblings during the season. I didn't get it when I had to begrudgingly predict it was going to happen. And it still didn't make sense after it happened. It's extremely early to judge the decision a complete failure, but if you're a Bayesian who had very pessimistic priors going into this season, the early evidence has done nothing but solidify that view.



Logically thinking, Cormier would not have built a schedule that he didn't believe this team of returning and incoming players couldn't excel in. I really thought the preseason the SOS for Dartmouth was too low based on this line of thought.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
rbg 
Postdoc
Posts: 3044

Reg: 10-20-14
12-14-16 02:03 PM - Post#215840    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Sorry to see Dartmouth continuing with the losing streak. I feel bad for the players and the coaches.

McLaughlin was hired in late April, one week after Cornell chose Brian Earl. It may have been one of the last openings filled.

According to a report at Hoop Dirt on 4/7/16, the names floated were Rob Jeter (former Head Coach at Milwaukee), Shaun Morris (Associate Head Coach at Boston University), Dane Fischer (Assistant Coach at George Mason), Dave McLaughlin (Northeastern Associate Head Coach), Matt Kingsley (Yale Assistant Coach), Brian Earl (Associate Head Coach at Princeton), and Kevin Kuwik (Dayton Assistant Coach). Also, it was possible that a current America East Coach and MAAC Coach were in the mix.

The MAAC coach was probably Mike Maker of Marist, who was the head coach at Williams when Sheehy was the AD for the Ephs. Also, Maker was an assistant coach at Dartmouth from 1991-2002.

The America East coach was probably UMass-Lowell's Pat Duquette, a former captain at Williams College playing under then-Coach Sheehy.

It is possible that Sheehy was rebuffed by the coaches with more experience and/or incredibly impressed with Coach McLaughlin.

McLaughlin has experience as a head coach at Stonehill College. Although a Division II school, he did have a fair amount of success there - 5 NCAA appearance in 9 season, including 2 Final Fours. He also was Northeastern's recruiting coordinator for the previous three seasons.

So, McLaughlin goes to a school that has not put in the same financial resources as many others in its own league. He was hired late in the game without the ability to choose any of this year's recruits. He is unfamiliar with the unique aspects of playing the Ivy League conference schedule, and ends up hiring a staff of inexperienced coaches.

While the results have been far from positive, it seems premature to talk about firing a person who was put into an unwinnable situation for this year. The main exception I would consider is if there were significant behavioral issues with the coach, the staff or the team. The only other exception is if a more experienced and successful Division 1 coach was definitely available.

Since there has been no word on any off-the-court problems and no experienced coach lobbying for the job, it seems unfair to talk about dismissing the coach without any chance at getting his own recruits on board and time to implement his system.

No one says that Dartmouth needs to wait six years like Penn did with Jerome Allen or Cornell did with Bill Courtney, but six weeks seems a bit early to throw in the towel.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 02:03 PM - Post#215841    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Well, I won't say you should never fire a coach after one season, but I think you'd just be repeating the Cormier mistake by doing so. Now that this path has been chosen, I think you have to stay on it and see how it plays out. Starting anew next year basically closes the window on competing with Boudreaux.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 805

Age: 51
Reg: 05-19-16
HARTFORD
12-14-16 02:39 PM - Post#215842    
    In response to rbg

I'm pretty certain that the plan wasn't a wait to win situation. You don't gamble with a star player like Boudreaux on your roster, you make hay while the sun shines! I'm 100% certain the plan was to win now with Boudreaux on the roster, not wait until McLaughlin has "his" players. When you take the job he has his players.

His current incoming recruits are not on the same level as Boudreaux. The recruits Cormier left him with on paper are better than the ones he has coming. If they can't do more with what they have, they surely won't be able to do more with less. Plus with a start like this you're not doing anything to improve your ability to recruit higher caliber players.

I'm sure McLaughlin is a nice guy probably has a family. But this is sport and business. You could easily argue, and some have [mrjames], that Cormier should have had more time. Also consider that these are not scholarship students. These families are paying something for school, and athletics takes time away from academics. Remember this is the Ivy League. I would not be surprised if there are conversations being had among players and their families about focusing more academics and less on losing basketball.
"...no excuses - only results!”


Edited by GoBigGreenBasketball on 12-14-16 02:57 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
HARTFORD
12-14-16 03:12 PM - Post#215844    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

I think I would echo the sentiment that we were in a win now or send Dartmouth back to the depths of the NCAA/Ivy League at the beginning of this season. We had developed a solid foundation and were attracting good recruits, just as the Ivy's as a whole were starting to thrive.

Boudreaux is the shining star right now and we are essentially wasting the time he has left in Hanover. Mclaughlin seems like a fantastic guy, but this is a completely unexpected (almost unfathomable) regression. I don't think its premature to fire someone if their performance is this far below expectations. If we go winless, which is shockingly a possibility based on projections, you cant retain a coach like that and expect a good return on recruiting/ or expect current players to stick around.

Edited by SomeDartmouthStudent on 12-14-16 03:13 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
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