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Username Post: HARTFORD        (Topic#19619)
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 805

Age: 51
Reg: 05-19-16
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 04:00 PM - Post#215859    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

Judging by the message board's reaction/response the Green's losing to Maine at home, then Hartford in the closing possessions, and being down 0-9 with no foreseeable winnable games is the tipping point. Coach McLaughlin really needed to win that home game.

I feel bad for the coach but way worse for the players. Coaching is a tough job...that's why most of us do it from the couch. But sport is a pure performance driven endeavor. You win or you lose. If this season continues on the current trajectory not making a change is a commitment to failure. Are we telling the existing players that the incoming class is the group to turn the tide, when the tide was turning before this year??? I hope they can turn it around, but if they don't Dartmouth can't compound the situation by extending another year. If they do go for naught on the season and bring the coach back then expect folks to bail. That would not be a good look.

If we were running a relay race Sheehy has passed the baton to a guy who is running the wrong way. It's unlikely that you can then turnaround and make up ground.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 04:26 PM - Post#215864    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

I know it's hard to imagine when you're 0-9, but there is simply no way that Dartmouth goes winless this year. I know the projections look bad at this point, but remember that a team with a 40% chance in every game will be expected to lose every game. However, in a 30 game season, they'll win about 12 games (well, math isn't my thing, but it's something like that). Dartmouth may not be favored again this year, but it won't matter -- you'll win some games.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 04:28 PM - Post#215865    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Watching from afar, I think the issue was the decision to pass the baton, and not that the wrong guy was given the baton. Now that you have handed it off, I think you have to let him run with it. Otherwise, you end up like the Cleveland Browns.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 04:36 PM - Post#215867    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Sorry if I'm just picking on your phrasing here, but I don't really get the "Cormier should have had more time" comment. I just don't see how anyone could have the opinion that he was failing. Looking at it historically, he had to be coming pretty close to maximizing what it was possible to do from his starting point.

Both in terms of the record and in terms of player development, I guess I have trouble envisioning what was expected. The team was moving steadily forward, with a slight dip last year after a key player unexpectedly graduated. Throwing the coach out after that dip seemed short-sighted at the time, and only seems moreso now.



 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 805

Age: 51
Reg: 05-19-16
Re: HARTFORD
12-14-16 04:58 PM - Post#215870    
    In response to SomeGuy

I didn't intend to suggest Cormier was failing. To the contrary I believe he was doing a great job and that the program was headed the right direction. I had the wind knocked out of me when he was let go.

My comment was in reply to [rbg] suggestion that it seems unfair and that the new coach needs more time to implement his system. Cormier was doing a great job and deserved "time" to see it through. He was let go to soon.


  • rbg Said:
So, McLaughlin goes to a school that has not put in the same financial resources as many others in its own league. He was hired late in the game without the ability to choose any of this year's recruits. He is unfamiliar with the unique aspects of playing the Ivy League conference schedule, and ends up hiring a staff of inexperienced coaches.

While the results have been far from positive, it seems premature to talk about firing a person who was put into an unwinnable situation for this year. The main exception I would consider is if there were significant behavioral issues with the coach, the staff or the team. The only other exception is if a more experienced and successful Division 1 coach was definitely available.

Since there has been no word on any off-the-court problems and no experienced coach lobbying for the job, it seems unfair to talk about dismissing the coach without any chance at getting his own recruits on board and time to implement his system.

No one says that Dartmouth needs to wait six years like Penn did with Jerome Allen or Cornell did with Bill Courtney, but six weeks seems a bit early to throw in the towel.



"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
12-14-16 05:54 PM - Post#215889    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Obviously there is a "sky is falling thing" going on right now. But if you take a deeper look, McLaughlin isn't even demonstrating coaching strengths within games.

It's one thing to lose every game and slowly get better by doing it, yet its a completely different scenario to make no changes (or even get worse) as you continue. Having been at most of the games- there are just some baffling decisions being made. For example, the way they decided to handle to zone last night.

I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet, but the whole waiting to see if it gets better isn't somewhere I want to be.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
12-14-16 10:14 PM - Post#215927    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

I haven't watched any of Dartmouth's games this year, but I was baffled at the firing of Cormier at the time and underwhelmed at the resume of his replacement. The change seemed to be one of those new-AD-wants-to-get-his-o wn-guy-in-there sorts of things, because Cormier had all teams on their toes going to play Dartmouth. (As a Boehm fan, I do suspect that his absence might have had more of an impact than some would realize, which would affect any coach, but not to the tune of 0-9 against the schedule thus far.)

 
flinder 
Freshman
Posts: 72

Age: 45
Reg: 11-16-16
12-14-16 11:10 PM - Post#215931    
    In response to SRP

I don't know if this helps, but I think Cormier has a complicated history with the program. Alumni from his first stint seem to feel much more warmly towards Faucher. I don't know if PC changed his approach with his second term, but I do know that, when McLaughlin was hired, several alumni met with him to talk about establishing a network of basketball alumni to help members of the current team find opportunities upon graduation. That didn't exist, and it doesn't seem like the sort of thing Cormier would have enjoyed cultivating; he doesn't strike me as a schmoozer.

Much as the direction of the team this year is depressing and a waste of Boudreaux, I think it's likely unwise to fire McLaughlin after one season. The message it sends to players (and potential replacement coaches) about instability in the program would outweigh the benefits of firing a rookie coach because of one terrible season. (That said, I live in the Boston area and have bought tickets to see the Harvard game each of the past 3-4 years, but I can't stomach it this year.) You can't attract a smart, talented coach to Dartmouth the same way you can get them to Harvard, Princeton, or Penn. Sheehy has to find the diamond in the rough; so far this year, we're still looking.

 
dmbkfan 
Pre-Frosh
Posts: 3

Reg: 11-07-16
Re: HARTFORD
12-15-16 12:36 PM - Post#215947    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

Where did you find the listing of the Ivy PER?

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 805

Age: 51
Reg: 05-19-16
12-15-16 12:39 PM - Post#215948    
    In response to flinder

  • Quote:
“Paul did a really good job at getting us out of the mud and being more competitive, but in my judgement, it was time for someone else to take us to the next level,” Sheehy said. “Paul worked incredibly hard and diligently here and he’s leaving the program far better off than when he took it over.”



If this season doesn't reverse course, the AD should be compelled to make the necessary changes, especially after public statements like the one above. Who's going to own driving the program back into the "mud". Surely this not the next level anyone was planning on going to.

"What to do with a mistake--recognize it, admit it, learn from it, forget it." - Dean Smith
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
Re: HARTFORD
12-15-16 01:42 PM - Post#215956    
    In response to dmbkfan

Hollinger PER-Ivy League

It is price locked to ESPN insider, so not sure how to best get it over here.. Interesting of note, it has been updated since the most recent game and Taylor (#59), Miles (#62), and Ike (#58 have all fallen. Wes and Ian moved into spots below #50 at #46 and #44.

Three of our (sometimes) starters are coming in among the 10 worst players in the league.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 805

Age: 51
Reg: 05-19-16
Re: HARTFORD
12-15-16 02:06 PM - Post#215961    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

Thanks
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
12-15-16 02:21 PM - Post#215965    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

For some reason I cant edit the above post. Saying "worst players" is a little harsh. It's been a rough start for those guys.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 805

Age: 51
Reg: 05-19-16
12-15-16 02:23 PM - Post#215966    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

I don't believe you can edit a post after someone replies. sorry bout that
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
12-15-16 02:35 PM - Post#215967    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Ah, yeah that makes sense. Regardless its a bad look. As to your point, i agree that we should hold Mclaughlin and Sheehy to a higher standard after saying we have escaped the mud and reached a higher level.

 
Stuart Suss 
PhD Student
Posts: 1439

Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
12-15-16 04:53 PM - Post#215985    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

Compare the Hollinger numbers to this Draft Express chart.

Sort the numbers by whatever category you prefer.



 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Reg: 11-30-16
HARTFORD
12-15-16 05:16 PM - Post#215990    
    In response to Stuart Suss

That is perfect. PER is the same because I believe Hollinger came up with that metric. Good way to view it for free, thanks!

It does only show the top 5 players in terms of minutes, but that still gives a pretty good look.

 
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