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Username Post: Ivy Title/Tourney Odds        (Topic#19752)
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 815

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
Re: Home Floor Advantage
02-20-17 10:43 AM - Post#222640    
    In response to bradley

What makes you think selection of the Palestra was unanimous? For that matter what makes you think the decision to hold a tournament was unanimous?

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 16012

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Home Floor Advantage
02-20-17 10:51 AM - Post#222641    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Well, we know that it was unanimous between H, Y and Pr because if any of those 3 opposes any Ivy move, it does not happen.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 815

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
02-20-17 12:25 PM - Post#222650    
    In response to palestra38

And why would HYP want a tournament again?

 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1039

Reg: 02-15-15
02-20-17 12:33 PM - Post#222652    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Why wouldn't they?

Are you really asking everyone to rehash the same arguments we have seen on these boards for years now?

C'mon man!

 
JadwinGeorge 
Sophomore
Posts: 190

Age: 69
Reg: 12-04-15
Re: Home Floor Advantage
02-20-17 12:37 PM - Post#222654    
    In response to palestra38

I can report without hesitation that neither Henderson nor Banghart favored The Palestra as the site for the tournament. Neither had veto power over the selection. Once the decision was made to have the thing, the remaining logistical decisions were made by "the committee." No other site in the league offers the advantages available at Penn: plenty of hotel rooms and plenty of seating capacity. If Penn grabs the 4th spot (or 3rd for that matter) and then wins the thing I would imagine the league would be compelled to consider a neutral site next year.

 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1039

Reg: 02-15-15
02-20-17 12:44 PM - Post#222656    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

Quote from Steve Donahue last year:

"All the coaches agreed that one of the best things about this is the Palestra,'' Donahue said. "It's an incredible environment for a playoff. I like four teams. We have eight. We eliminate half the league. I think it's important that the regular season means a lot.''

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 487

Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
02-20-17 12:52 PM - Post#222657    
    In response to PennFan10

I always love the desire to try to quash a different opinion, whether reasonable or not in your eyes.

There was a 3/10/16 article in philly.com that describes the decisions approved by the Ivy League Presidents based on a recommendation made by the Tournament Committee. Certainly, the selection of the Palestra was approved by the College Presidents. The writer interviewed the Penn AD and got some quotes on a series of topics including the format -- she sat on the tournament committee. Each school should live with the consequences of the inaugural site selection as it was approved subject to by-laws. Whether it was a good or bad decision is a different issue but it was an understandable one if money/exposure was the driver.

I did not realize that the Presidents approved that the regular season winner will be recognized as Ivy League Champion unlike some other conferences -- thank goodness. The tournament, as stated, is for the automatic bid.

My vote would have been cast for Timbukto or Pyongyang as the inaugural site.

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4717

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Home Floor Advantage
02-20-17 12:55 PM - Post#222658    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

The decision to hold the tournament was unanimous at the coach and AD level and was 7-1 at the policy committee level. I don't know which vote was against in that committee.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 16012

Reg: 11-21-04
02-20-17 01:04 PM - Post#222660    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

All I can tell you is that everyone but H-Y wants the Ivy football winner to go to the FCS championship and it never happens. So deduce what you will from that.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2042

Reg: 11-23-04
02-20-17 01:16 PM - Post#222662    
    In response to PennFan10

I would guess that Penn coach, Steve Donahue's quote cited by Penn10 is about as credible as those by a recently elected Wharton grad

 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 3088

Age: 54
Reg: 07-07-09
02-20-17 01:35 PM - Post#222666    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:
And why would HYP want a tournament again?


Thanks for being honest. It's refreshing. Because this is the question, none of the rest of us matter.


 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 815

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
Ivy Title/Tourney Odds
02-20-17 02:06 PM - Post#222671    
    In response to TheLine

I wonder if 'everyone' affected favored the tournament or, in the end, if they went along for unanimity's sake.

As for the Donahue quote, the regular season may mean "a lot" more than it used to for some teams, but it now matters far far less than it used to for the others. As for Donahue on the Palestra - again - sounds like a plug for unanimity in the face of no other legitimate option.

On location, it is idiotic to have one team host the tournament consistently on its campus, especially when that campus is a geographical border for the conference. This has nothing to do with whether the Palestra is the cathedral. It's just not how things should be done, especially in a sport where there is a substantiated home court advantage and exacerbated travel differences.

I'm not trying to undercut the fact that the tournament will be exciting. Just pick one of the narratives: (i) Penn becomes the 'hot' team following an amazing turnaround; (ii) Harvard's youth and depth play out in the end; (iii) Yale, given time, reverts to OOC form; or (iv) Princeton's tournament win vindicates that the 'best' team should win both the regular season and the tournament. It'll be fun, but the location shouldn't be on the southernmost campus every year.

On the other hand, I'm seriously on the fence about whether to bother attending Harvard's final road games this year.




Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 02-20-17 02:07 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 3088

Age: 54
Reg: 07-07-09
Ivy Title/Tourney Odds
02-20-17 02:38 PM - Post#222675    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Traditionally the biggest opponents of a tournament have been Penn's fan base.

The Palestra is the only logical place for the tournament. The only other arena big enough to hold it is Jadwin but it's a weird layout.

I don't think there is a good off-site arena to have it either. Mike has offered the arena in Bridgeport as an alternative. Is anyone enthused about being stuck in Bridgeport for two days?

Other conferences hold their tournaments in the same place every year. Big East has had its tournament at MSG since forever even though it's a home court for St. John's.

Even though the Palestra is a no-brainer - it's historic, the best for TV, big enough, plenty of hotels nearby - I doubt the tournament will be there permanently because it's not Harvard's arena. Or even Yale's or Princeton's. And we all understand the league's politics. All colleges are equal, just some are more equal than others.

I wouldn't mind the league doing its best to ensure Penn doesn't have a home court advantage when it does make the tournament. Bend over backwards to provide fair access to tickets to all teams. We all have alumni who travel to games. I've been to games at Levien when it felt that there were as many Cornell fans as Columbia fans and it didn't feel like much of a home game.


 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 815

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
02-20-17 02:40 PM - Post#222676    
    In response to TheLine

Equal?

Would it be equal to hold the tournament at Dartmouth or up in Boston - every year?

 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 3088

Age: 54
Reg: 07-07-09
02-20-17 02:44 PM - Post#222677    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

If Leede was the best place to hold a tournament then I'd be all for it.

I'd love the tournament to be at Levien then have the ticket office over-allocate to the home team. There's no more hostile place to play in the league right now when it's packed with Lion fans.


 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 487

Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: Ivy Title/Tourney Odds
02-20-17 02:56 PM - Post#222678    
    In response to TheLine

You make some valid points as there is no other place like the Palestra. It is a magnificent building with so much history. Offering up tickets to balance things out competitively is a nice thought but Stub Hub will be a very busy website as Penn fans purchase re-sale tickets. We all know that it will be buzzing for Penn fans if they make it; nothing wrong with that.

There is a competitive edge obviously as to knowing the rims, lighting, etc. Penn will have a competitive advantage due to familiarity. It is what it is --- welcome to the IL Tournament.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 261

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
02-20-17 03:45 PM - Post#222682    
    In response to bradley


And let's be honest- if Princeton, Yale, or Harvard can't beat this Penn team in an Ivy tournament at the Palestra, then chances are they weren't going to advance in the NCAA.

This Penn team really shouldn't scare anyone. When/if Penn gets better, then we will talk about unfair advantages.

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4717

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-20-17 04:50 PM - Post#222700    
    In response to Go Green

Beating Penn on the road is about as difficult as beating Provy, Seton Hall or Vandy at home. Or Stanford, UConn or Memphis on a neutral floor.

Maybe not the scariest propositions in the world, but certainly those games would have my attention...

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 16012

Reg: 11-21-04
02-20-17 05:43 PM - Post#222710    
    In response to mrjames

Of course, those last 3 teams are having down years.

Can you fill us in with the current playoff odds for the teams from Yale on down? What is the percentage chance of Penn getting up to 3rd and Yale falling out?

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 261

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
02-20-17 05:53 PM - Post#222715    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:
Beating Penn on the road is about as difficult as beating Provy, Seton Hall or Vandy at home. Or Stanford, UConn or Memphis on a neutral floor.

Maybe not the scariest propositions in the world, but certainly those games would have my attention...



If the numbers say that, I believe you. But I'm trying to find a real-world example where that played out this season. I'm not coming up with anything.

Providence absolutely destroyed Brown (albeit at home).

As we discussed briefly on the Dartmouth board, I'm not convinced that the numbers always translate well into what's actually happening. I still think that Princeton shouldn't be whining about "home court advantage" if they somehow lose to a 6-8 Penn team in the tourney.

 
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