palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32796
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Ivy Title/Tourney Odds
02-21-17 09:04 AM - Post#222812
In response to TheLine
"Wilkes Barre? Really? Why not hold the tournament on the moon?"
First good laugh of the week. I had much the same thought---indeed, SpaceX and the Ivies would make a great marketing combination.
Wilkes Barre may be the most depressing place imaginable to place the tournament. There simply is nothing to do and it's too early in the year to go rafting on the Lehigh River. Why do you think the Globetrotters have a sellout?
I always thought the best place to play the tournament was at the RAC---one thing you can be sure of is that Rutgers won't be playing any post-season ball there.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-21-17 09:25 AM - Post#222816
In response to palestra38
Why not Bridgeport? Haven't heard any good arguments other than it being close to Yale. Very central. Nice arena. Public transportation adjacent.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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Ivy Title/Tourney Odds
02-21-17 09:39 AM - Post#222817
In response to mrjames
Not a wonderful city to hang out in - something to consider when most teams and fans would be traveling in for a couple of days. I honestly don't care that it's close to Yale. I'd rather the tournament be at Jadwin than Bridgeport.
The RAC is OK too. New Brunswick is much better than Bridgeport. Has public transportation and hotels. Also close to home for me. And yes, nothing important there during March Madness.
The problem the league has is that there's only one logical place to hold the tournament except it's on the campus of one of the teams. I get it. But how many times are we fed the line that each school has its own unique set of strengths and it's OK that not all is fair?
Edited by TheLine on 02-21-17 09:42 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1145
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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02-21-17 09:40 AM - Post#222818
In response to Bryan
Princeton and Penn have both won their last 4 games, against common opponents, home vs. the C's and at Yale and Brown. Princeton has won by a combined 45 points, which just exceeds the current Sagarin expected differences. Penn has won those same 4 by 67 points, an average of 5.5 points more than the Princeton victories. Now, Penn was 0-6 in Ivy games up to that point but they have been terrific in their last 4 games.
I'd like to give truth serum to both Amaker and Henderson. I'd bet a lot that they'd both prefer to play Yale in the semifinal rather than Penn.
Dartmouth did similar chest-thumping at the end of the 2015 season when we finished with a hot streak.
And then we got thumped in the first round of the CIT by Canisius.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-21-17 09:52 AM - Post#222821
In response to TheLine
I disagree that there's only one logical place to hold the tourney, though I do agree that The Palestra is a strong venue to choose.
From what I'm hearing, and it sounds like what Tannenwald is hearing too from his Twitter feed, here's how I'd handicap the three possible outcomes for next year (most likely to least likely):
1) Have a tourney held someplace else
2) Don't have a tourney
3) Have a tourney at The Palestra
Three isn't locked into three - if the environment is great, games are great and HCA doesn't have an adverse effect, maybe things will unfold differently, but right now, that's the order I'd bet on.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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Ivy Title/Tourney Odds
02-21-17 10:02 AM - Post#222823
In response to mrjames
I've been against the tournament but now that we have one I think it's good. I really like that it's 4 teams, it is making every game count.
I'm guessing the site will be rotated. I also strongly believe that the environment at the Palestra will be great. Having been to many Big 5 and Penn-Princeton games over the years I think HCA is being over-estimated and will only be a factor for teams whose fans don't travel well.
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DJ Jazzy Jeff
Freshman
Posts: 58
Reg: 07-22-16
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02-21-17 10:32 AM - Post#222832
In response to TheLine
Bridgeport didn't work for the MAAC tournament and it probably won't work for the IL either. Just not as much of a destination and draw for fans as other locations. The MAAC tried and failed to find other suitable locations other than Albany and it didn't work. If the IL tries the same, I bet they get the same result.
If Creighton, Marquette, DePaul and others (and their fans) can travel to MSG, then whoever makes the top 4 can travel to the Palestra. Even if it's the home court for Penn.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3770
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-21-17 10:33 AM - Post#222833
In response to mrjames
Why not Bridgeport? Haven't heard any good arguments other than it being close to Yale. Very central. Nice arena. Public transportation adjacent.
And, as we all know, Bridgeport is often referred to as "The Wilkes-Barre of Southern Connecticut."
When I as at Penn I was on the rifle team (seriously), and we used to go up to Wilkes-Barre every year to shoot against Kings College. This was not a trip to which we looked forward, partly because Kings had an outstanding team and they always kicked our butts, and partly because WB is such a depressing place.
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DJ Jazzy Jeff
Freshman
Posts: 58
Reg: 07-22-16
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02-21-17 10:36 AM - Post#222835
In response to DJ Jazzy Jeff
How can the IL not have a tourney after the excitement this season has had, and it's not even over yet? Teams and their fans still have something to fight for and that makes it fun.
Look at the great run Holy Cross made last year and even won their first game in the NCAA tournament!!
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21187
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-21-17 10:43 AM - Post#222839
In response to DJ Jazzy Jeff
For fans in the NYC area, Bridgeport is close enough to drive to, head home, and come back for the final game if need be. The arena is immediately off of I-95. There is also the Bridgeport station of Metro North's New Haven line, very close to the arena, that can serve the same purpose.
There is ample parking and the arena itself is very nice and roomy with great sightlines.
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westphillywarrior
Sophomore
Posts: 196
Age: 43
Reg: 01-08-11
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02-21-17 11:06 AM - Post#222844
In response to mrjames
I'm really surprised that playing the games on the higher seeded team's home court is not on the list. That would be my second choice (after Don't Have a Tourney).
I like that it gives a significant reward to teams and their fans for their performance in the 14 game tournament.
If that format is too complicated for "The Committee" maybe they can hire someone from the Patriot League to run it.
Why don't you think that option is on your list?
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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02-21-17 11:46 AM - Post#222852
In response to westphillywarrior
That's a limiting option when half the league plays in 2000 seat arenas. That's a quarter the size of The Palestra.
I'd hope that one of the bigger reasons to have a tournament is to raise the stature of the league. It is for me at least. if so then it needs to be somewhere that fits the bill.
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Columbia Alum
Junior
Posts: 247
Age: 38
Reg: 11-15-11
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02-21-17 12:31 PM - Post#222854
In response to TheLine
I like the concept of a 4 team tournament, makes all teams fight until the very end of the season. To make it fairer and give more incentive to the top 2-3 teams, tourney games should be held at the higher ranked team's home court, like NFL playoffs. I understand capacity restrictions but right now there is no advantage to 1 vs. 4 apart from who is played against whom in the first round. Plus the Palestra gives penn an unfair advantage over others when penn makes the tourney.
I'd really like the see how large the audience is for H vs Y at the Palestra. My bet is the palestra doesn't fill up, and more people would show up to watch, if the game were held at Lavietes (or second ranked team's home court)
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-21-17 12:33 PM - Post#222855
In response to westphillywarrior
I'll keep my ears peeled for discussion of higher-seed home site (or highest-seed home site) formats, but I believe why I'm not hearing that is due to the commitment to keep the women's and men's tournaments at the same site.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32796
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-21-17 12:35 PM - Post#222856
In response to Columbia Alum
There was a playoff game between Harvard and Yale 2 years ago at the Palestra and not only did it sell out, but tickets were going for over $100 apiece.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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Ivy Title/Tourney Odds
02-21-17 01:02 PM - Post#222859
In response to palestra38
If we go to higher seed home then Princeton will become my 3rd rooting interest and we can't have that.
But seriously, either we want to have a tournament or we don't. You can't have a good tournament in a 2000 seat gym. If we want fair then let's go back to the old format.
Edited by TheLine on 02-21-17 01:07 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32796
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Ivy Title/Tourney Odds
02-21-17 01:11 PM - Post#222860
In response to TheLine
I agree. I consistently opposed a tournament on the basis that we should send the best team over 14 games. The decision having been made, I am enjoying the Penn run and would love to see Penn win out and come into the NCAA tournament with one of the longer undefeated streaks in the nation.
But it would not be fair to Princeton. After shedding a few tears for them, I would shake off the depression and root for Penn.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Ivy Title/Tourney Odds
02-21-17 01:18 PM - Post#222863
In response to palestra38
Basically I agree, except for the part about shaking off the tears and rooting for ... God! That would be tough! 
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QHoops
Senior
Posts: 368
Reg: 12-16-04
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02-21-17 01:20 PM - Post#222864
In response to palestra38
The first decision that needs to be made is this a tournament (with all the teams at the same site, including the women if that is a priority), or what might better be called a playoff.
If it is a playoff - much easier to manage and apportion benefit to the higher seeded teams. All games are at the higher seed, either a straight 4 team playoff, or as has been mentioned, perhaps go to 3 teams with the 1 seed getting a bye. That preserves a significant benefit to winning the regular season.
If a tournament atmosphere is the goal, then you have to rule out playing at 5 or 6 of the sites due to capacity issues. It's just not credible to have a 'tournament' at a venue seating 2 or 3 thousand people.
That leaves the Palestra, Jadwin, and non-league sites. It's hard to imagine getting everyone to agree to a non-league site.
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DJ Jazzy Jeff
Freshman
Posts: 58
Reg: 07-22-16
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02-21-17 01:30 PM - Post#222866
In response to palestra38
I just don't understand the "fair" argument. Nothing is fair... Was it fair when the Giants were a wildcard team and won the Super Bowl? Is it fair when the ACC tournament is in Greensboro and UNC is in the final? Is it fair when Siena is in the MAAC final on their home court? Is it fair when Syracuse was in the Big East final and the entire MSG was covered in Orange and Blue?
Penn may be playing the best now and may be the best team, and if so should deserve the NCAA bid if they win the tournament. That's how sports go. It took them longer to figure things out and now they're playing at a high level. It just so happens that they have the best venue for the tournament as well. Maybe Princeton is the better team and they beat Penn...we'll only know because of this great thing called a post season tournament!!
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