palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32909
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Ivy Title/Tourney Odds 02-21-17 02:02 PM - Post#222870
In response to DJ Jazzy Jeff
Yes, it's fair in the NFL because the teams don't play a round robin and there is no "fair" way to judge the value of the record. So they give an auto bid to the first place teams and the next two best records. That is as fair as they can make it without going to a 4 division setup with 8 teams and no inter-division or inter-conference games.
With mid-major conferences that get only one bid and have a round robin, it is patently unfair not to send the winner. You, in effect, have had a tournament and then disregard the result.
|
Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8341
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
|
02-21-17 02:32 PM - Post#222875
In response to palestra38
A couple of things to mention about home court and the Palestra - it has a history as a 'home' court for other teams in the Big 5 and a Tournament site. Much of the HC advantage for Penn can be dialed out of the place with ticket sales, etc. More importantly, the Ivy home teams tend not to have the same advantage they might in other conferences. I have not run an data analysis on this but I'm pretty sure Ivy road teams are over .500 this year and probably close to that against the spread. Also note that Ivy referees are about as adept at home calls as they are with every everything else ;-) Hopefully, that will improve at IvyMadness.
|
Kit
Senior
Posts: 380
Loc: Central Massachusetts
Reg: 11-29-04
|
02-21-17 02:45 PM - Post#222876
In response to Streamers
Why not play the tournament at Madison Square Garden? Saturday night is the Big East championship, so on Saturday afternoon they could play the semi-finals. On Sunday, they could play the championship. It would be a perfect fit. The women's tournament could rotate between the Palestra and Jadwin.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32909
Reg: 11-21-04
|
02-21-17 02:55 PM - Post#222877
In response to Kit
Too bad they no longer have the Felt Forum
|
T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts: 1173
Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
|
02-21-17 03:22 PM - Post#222884
In response to palestra38
Too bad they no longer have the Felt Forum
The New York Apples OWNED the Felt Forum.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32909
Reg: 11-21-04
|
02-21-17 03:29 PM - Post#222886
In response to T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
I had to look that one up---saw it was the renamed (and a much better original name) New York Sets of Team Tennis. Only played one year as the Apples...but there was a time NY had the Mets, Jets, Nets and Sets.
|
TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
|
02-21-17 03:36 PM - Post#222887
In response to palestra38
The Felt Forum is a great name for a pool hall.
|
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2701
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
|
02-21-17 03:59 PM - Post#222889
In response to TheLine
Or a club of ill repute
|
T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts: 1173
Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
|
02-21-17 04:02 PM - Post#222890
In response to palestra38
I had to look that one up---saw it was the renamed (and a much better original name) New York Sets of Team Tennis. Only played one year as the Apples...but there was a time NY had the Mets, Jets, Nets and Sets.
I think Sesame Street played on this in one or two episodes with a sports team named the Pets.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32909
Reg: 11-21-04
|
02-21-17 04:03 PM - Post#222891
In response to T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
OTB (RIP) had an ad campaign where they called themselves the New York Bets
|
Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
|
02-21-17 06:02 PM - Post#222903
In response to palestra38
I get the feeling that Penn fans may be getting a little ahead of themselves here. This thing is FAR from over.
|
penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21310
Reg: 12-02-04
|
02-21-17 06:26 PM - Post#222908
In response to Quakers03
Darn right. If Columbia beats Penn this thing is going down to the last game, most likely.
|
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
|
02-21-17 06:39 PM - Post#222915
In response to penn nation
Columbia? I would worry about Cornell first. They are going to be motivated after being embarrassed. Kenpom has this as a 3pt game.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32909
Reg: 11-21-04
|
02-21-17 06:43 PM - Post#222916
In response to Quakers03
What Penn fans are acting confident? I haven't seen any. We're playing great but any team can lose on the road in the Ivies. Had the turnaround not occurred, I would have expected 3 losses in these 4 games. One game at a time.
|
TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1892
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Ivy Title/Tourney Odds 02-21-17 06:55 PM - Post#222919
In response to DJ Jazzy Jeff
Is it fair when Syracuse was in the Big East final and the entire MSG was covered in Orange and Blue?
The Ivy League is not the Big East, or the Acc or the A-10, or certainly the NFL. For at least the short term, it is a one-bid league, which makes this tournament now do-or-die. For conferences with multiple participants in the NCAA virtually guaranteed, these tournaments are a spectacle without the urgency that will accompany the IL tournament. Holding it at the tired old, smelly barn in west Philly just because its old and storied just doesn't cut it. If it went to 3 teams, with top seed getting a bye, I MIGHT feel differently because #1 would get a major benefit from winning the 14-game tournament, even it ended up playing Penn in the final.
(Ok I admit that I am a big fan of the Palestra, have dragged my wife and kids there to experience it and have cherished memories going there as a child to wathc P-P in double headers with LaSalle/Temple/St. Joes. But it just isn't right for this purpose)
Edited by TigerFan on 02-21-17 06:58 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21310
Reg: 12-02-04
|
Re: Ivy Title/Tourney Odds 02-21-17 07:06 PM - Post#222923
In response to TigerFan
I must say that I chuckle when continuing to read the objections of Tiger fans to the Palestra.
Based on this logic, Big Five games at the Palestra would never have materialized. As many have noted, when you have motivated fan bases the "home court" factor at the Palestra is greatly minimized.
Is it fair when Syracuse was in the Big East final and the entire MSG was covered in Orange and Blue?
The Ivy League is not the Big East, or the Acc or the A-10, or certainly the NFL. For at least the short term, it is a one-bid league, which makes this tournament now do-or-die. For conferences with multiple participants in the NCAA virtually guaranteed, these tournaments are a spectacle without the urgency that will accompany the IL tournament. Holding it at the tired old, smelly barn in west Philly just because its old and storied just doesn't cut it. If it went to 3 teams, with top seed getting a bye, I MIGHT feel differently because #1 would get a major benefit from winning the 14-game tournament, even it ended up playing Penn in the final.
(Ok I admit that I am a big fan of the Palestra, have dragged my wife and kids there to experience it and have cherished memories going there as a child to wathc P-P in double headers with LaSalle/Temple/St. Joes. But it just isn't right for this purpose)
|
TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1892
Reg: 11-21-04
|
02-21-17 08:19 PM - Post#222932
In response to penn nation
The Big Five was a great annual battle played between storied programs but with no connection to any conference or implications for post-season (and it appears to be little more than a glorified exhibition series now). You can't compare the Big Five to games that decide the conference representation to the NCAA tournament.
|
TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
|
Ivy Title/Tourney Odds 02-21-17 08:48 PM - Post#222940
In response to PennFan10
Columbia? I would worry about Cornell first. They are going to be motivated after being embarrassed. Kenpom has this as a 3pt game.
Cornell is sitting at 3-5. I've seen them a few times this year, and they've looked good except for the egg they laid against Penn. It's a team that can definitely take 4th.
A week ago P38 was waxing poetic about Brown.
Based on their complaints about the Palestra it sounds like Princeton fans are more optimistic about Penn making the tournament than Penn fans are.
|
SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4921
Reg: 02-04-06
|
02-21-17 08:52 PM - Post#222943
In response to TheLine
I think it's just the sap rising from the resurgence of the Killer P's. Brings back old memories and reflexes.
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6418
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Ivy Title/Tourney Odds 02-21-17 09:42 PM - Post#222954
In response to TheLine
The problem with Cornell is always the possibility you catch them on a night when Morgan and Hatter don't miss.
If I'm Penn, I don't even think about Columbia until Friday is done.
|