Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1896
Reg: 11-29-04
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01-19-17 05:22 PM - Post#218805
In response to SomeGuy
And can everyone here concede that no matter whether you like or dislike Foreman and Donahue as our starter, that the biggest shortcoming of this team is a good PG?
If you look at all of the championship teams of yesteryear, a PG was one of our best players. Allen, Jordan, Toole, Ibby, Rosen, etc. The only year where this might not have been the case was the year that Tim Begley effectively was our playmaker even though he was more like a SG/SF than a PG. Ibby was also a rapidly improving sophomore on that team.
Our team with the best forward tandem that I remember, U and Koko, didn't win in the gap year between Jordan and Toole.
This is league where the PG means a lot, and Foreman and Donahue are not good enough to bring us to the upper tier. Nothing against them - both have shown real grit, skills and toughness. This team with someone like Rosen would look very different.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-19-17 05:32 PM - Post#218806
In response to Penndemonium
Donahue isn't really a PG right now, other than being short.
Foreman, Silpe, Goodman, MacDonald, and Wood have all played point this year --Donahue really hasn't.
Agreed he isn't the answer, but so far he isn't even in the conversation.
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Buckeye Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1601
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-19-17 05:33 PM - Post#218807
In response to Penndemonium
I absolutely agree that your point guard should be one of your best players. That Foreman happens to be one of our best players, and he is, is another issue.
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Buckeye Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1601
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-19-17 05:36 PM - Post#218809
In response to palestra38
Maybe even over the next three games.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-19-17 05:44 PM - Post#218811
In response to SomeGuy
Yes, I'm not sure why Brown beating the 1-3-1 using the same strategy everyone in the world knows to use against a 1-3-1 indicates that it won't work anymore. Everyone tries to attack it the way Brown did. That includes the OOC teams we did it against. And Princeton. Brown doesn't have some magic bullet that everyone will now use --they successfully did what everyone else tries to do.
Exactly, it's not like a 1-3-1 is that exotic. I mean maybe people just literally don't bother gameplanning for a non conference team to the point where they don't even inform the players what defense the other team uses and the first 5 minutes the team is scrambling around trying to remember how they're supposed to beat a 1-3-1. Sounds absurd, but maybe.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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01-19-17 05:50 PM - Post#218812
In response to Jeff2sf
It's not absurd.
The scouting and planning done by in-conference opponents is different from the out-of-conference ones. Brown was waiting for it and punished it, knowing our legs were probably tired for the 2nd game of the weekend and defensive movement was not going to be what it needs to be.
1-3-1 is going to have to adapt - we discussed it on a thread early in the season.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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01-19-17 05:52 PM - Post#218813
In response to Jeff2sf
All defense depends on anticipation, quick reaction, and coordination with teammates. Those factors vary somewhat for any team game to game, regardless of system. I saw Jerry Tarkanian commenting after his UNLV team was upset by Duke that they just hadn't played defense as well as they usually did, not getting in the passing lanes, not getting over screens, etc. Players actually look slower and weaker when that happens.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-19-17 06:15 PM - Post#218814
In response to SRP
Yes, one thing that was interesting Saturday is that we looked slow at everything on defense. Our press was totally ineffective, as was the 1-3-1. And it seemed to be everybody. I won't name names (we've done enough of that in this thread), but there were a couple of guys who either totally lost their man or were beaten off the dribble basically every possession they were on the floor. Everybody just looked a step slow.
They looked kind of like the youth basketball team I coach on Sunday. The kids explained after the game that they'd all been at a sleepover party the night before and didn't sleep. Maybe the Quakers were out late Saturday. As for my team, I'm instituting a curfew.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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01-19-17 06:47 PM - Post#218816
In response to SomeGuy
It's the first Ivy back-to-backer for a lot of these guys.
1-3-1, like the traditional Princeton 3-2, requires a significant amount of running back and forth to cover gaps, especially in the corners. When you're slow doing that then the other team will get an open look from the baseline or will continue moving the ball until they get an open look elsewhere.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3992
Reg: 11-23-04
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01-19-17 08:39 PM - Post#218819
In response to TheLine
I love this Board! 109 posts with Brown in the header
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Penn v Brown
01-19-17 08:44 PM - Post#218820
In response to TheLine
I was as frustrated as everyone with the weekend games, but this is a clear overreaction in the opposite direction.
Against Yale... we shot 7 of 27 on 3s for 26%. Until that game we were averaging 35%. If we hit a measly 3 more 3s for 10 of 27 for 37%, we would have scored enough points to win.
Against Brown... we shot worse for 4 of 19 for 21%. If we hit 3 more for 7 of 19 and 36% and we hit a few of those frustrating missed bunnies, we would have scored enough points to win. Yes Brown looked better, but also equally likely they had a top game and we had a bottom games.
She shot atrociously from 3 for the weekend. No one has said it here, but important to know that offense actually affects defense! If you brick a ton of shots (like we did) that allows for the other team to run out before you get your defense set. I think that hurt us in both of this weekends games. If we make more shots, it does help the def.
Last point... personnel matters and I think we've made mistakes here that have cost us. Listening to Coach Donahue's weekly show, it sounds like we are going to see changes. For starters, it sounds like we might get more AJ and Max together with Howard getting to play the 3 spot. I personally think we need to see proportionally less Donahue and proportionally more Woods and/or Betley.
Edited by Mike Porter on 01-19-17 09:07 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Penn v Brown
01-20-17 09:37 PM - Post#218906
In response to Mike Porter
Hmm... Yale is currently losing by 12 points to Brown with 5 minutes or so left to go in first half.
That is not good for us. We need to root for Yale because we want all other contenders to lose (this is really confusing my normal rooting patterns).
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-20-17 09:55 PM - Post#218910
In response to Mike Porter
Brown, at home, leads Yale 40-28 at halftime. Yale has committed 14 turnovers in 35 possessions; Brown has 2 turnovers. Speith has 4 - 3 pointers and 15 total points.
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13otto
Masters Student
Posts: 779
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Penn v Brown
01-20-17 10:42 PM - Post#218912
In response to Mike Porter
Yeah, I cannot root for Yale. Brown leads 61-59 with 3:44 to go.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-20-17 10:47 PM - Post#218913
In response to 13otto
Totally understand... not a fan of rooting for Yale either. Brown could really win this, up 2 with 1:49 left. That could really be a problem for us to make top 4.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-20-17 10:50 PM - Post#218914
In response to Mike Porter
Or maybe my reverse jinx is working... Oni is hitting like 4 3s in a row and now Yale has 4 point lead with 18 seconds to go.
Oni is really, really good. Hell of an Ivy freshman class this year.
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13otto
Masters Student
Posts: 779
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-20-17 11:03 PM - Post#218915
In response to Mike Porter
Yale escaped with a 75-74 win.
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