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Username Post: Cornell Game #1        (Topic#19835)
hoopla 
Masters Student
Posts: 484

Age: 43
Reg: 08-28-12
Cornell Game #1
01-29-17 03:51 PM - Post#219821    
    In response to hoops123

Whoa

BOO

Disappointing to see a Dartmouth grad connected to the program filetting basically everyone, including current players and coaches

If you played at Dartmouth why are you singling out the guys?

And you really think you could do a better job than Coach Mac?

Edited by hoopla on 01-29-17 04:19 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 80

Age: 47
Reg: 12-14-16
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-29-17 04:27 PM - Post#219830    
    In response to hoopla

Thats cool. First, I never said I played at Dartmouth. Second, this is a forum board for opinions. The only time I said I could do something better is in defeating a 1-3-1 zone. Hartford and Columbia both killed us with it, both teams weren't that good at it, and we never set picks at the top of the key or the elbow to allow dribble penetrations and subsequent dishes as the zone collapses on the guy that penetrates. So I blame the coaches and their game planning and the players for their lack of zone breaking execution. I assume that opinion holds some water to people who have playing or coaching (and even observing) experience. I kinda thought my opinions were rather specific and focused, but we can agree to disagree. Would love to hear where specifically it is you think I erred. My coaching record was 63% wins over 3 years (no Coach K here) until I got tired of telling unrealistic parents that their kids weren't good enough to play/make the team when they thought their kid was going to the NBA, the school politics, and the fact that I was poor and not making enough money to raise a family on. Grad school and a focus on business changed that. So if the board consensus is that I shouldn't be honest about what i see and think, and that realistic commentary/opinion is discouraged, and that cheer leading for one's Alma Mater is priority one, I can fade off into the sunset. No big deal. My guess is that if people aren't encouraged to call things as they see them (even when it may hurt people's feelings), then I believe that lack of dialogue encourages the status quo and you can expect more of the same on the court for many years to come. Just one man's opinion, nothing more.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 267

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-29-17 05:05 PM - Post#219832    
    In response to hoopla

  • hoopla Said:
Whoa

BOO

Disappointing to see a Dartmouth grad connected to the program filetting basically everyone, including current players and coaches

If you played at Dartmouth why are you singling out the guys?

And you really think you could do a better job than Coach Mac?



You didn't spend much time on the Penn board during the Miller and Allen years, I take it?

 
hoopla 
Masters Student
Posts: 484

Age: 43
Reg: 08-28-12
01-29-17 05:56 PM - Post#219834    
    In response to hoops123

You should keep posting

I just had a reaction to the comments on individual players and coaches

Maybe a touch of hyperbole and unverifiable rumor alongside the opinion irked me

Probably just my "ears," but the tone of what I was reading seemed akin to that of the parents that partly drove you away from coaching

If I'm ever blessed with children I will try not to be that guy


 
hoopla 
Masters Student
Posts: 484

Age: 43
Reg: 08-28-12
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-29-17 06:00 PM - Post#219835    
    In response to Go Green

I prefer your brand of criticism:

"Yay?"

And

the "Don't Buy" clip from Arrested Development

 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 80

Age: 47
Reg: 12-14-16
01-29-17 07:12 PM - Post#219842    
    In response to hoopla

Its all good Hoopla! I think that as one gets near the top of the pyramid (whatever your chosen profession or calling may be), the scrutiny and accountability goes up. Mclaughlin (and his assistants and players) and Sheehy (and the other coaches he hired) are all intertwined at a new "Dartmouth/Ivy League" level of accountability. For Mclaughlin, this isn't Stonehill D2 and he's not a Northeastern Asst Coach where the head coach calls the shots. He's the head coach of a D1 program now. He's expected to know the X's and O's of the game (from what I've seen so far, not sure that he does), expected to hire smart and talented assistants, and expected to recruit athletes that will win Ivy League Basketball Championships for Dartmouth. As an aside, the excuses of how hard it is to recruit to Dartmouth is BS and an excuse for losing (Buddy does a damn good job of getting kids from warm weather environments to come to the Great White North (no political incorrectness intended)). Win championships and people will come here. Back on message: While technically Mclaughlin reports to Sheehy, he very much indirectly reports to all alumni who bother to care and support not only Dartmouth Athletics, but basketball specifically (I do). I believe there is an accountability to fans/supporters for the product that is placed on the floor to compete against other schools we play. And, if Mclaughlin puts an inferior product on the floor, that product has his signature on it. It's his and he owns it. Even if he didn't recruit any/all the kids. Just like the Parcells video put up earlier (I loved it!). None of us could take a job where the predecessor did a poor job and tell the boss after the first year "My results would have been better if my predecessor had hired better employees." Might work in the first month or two, but to any boss worth his salt, that excuse would get old very quickly. So I, like many of you, kept my mouth shut until we were 3-12. And then, when we kept seeing Mclaughlin's product go on the floor game after game and play the same poor defenses, run the same poor offenses, make the same poor turnovers,I started questioning (as a caring,athletics supporting alumnus)why individuals were doing the same things over and over (don't they break down film??), why the coaching staff seems unable to make in-game adjustments that change the bad stuff to good stuff, why individual players basketball IQ seems so low that they can't make personal adjustments to help the team win (example: Guilien/Miles not passing to open teammates with maddening regularity..again, don't they watch film? Isn't the coaching staff teaching and developing them to change their behaviors? Try benching Smith/Wright next time they drive to the basket and miss an open teammate. Take them out every time they do it. I guarantee they get religion quickly. Bench time equals more passes which equals more playing time). Excuses aside, Mclaughlin owns this product and right now, he's managing one of the worst products in all of college basketball. And Sheehy manages him. All Mclaughlins fault? No, the players have to make plays. The coaches don't play the game. But the fact they we are not seeing any discernible improvement game to game and players are doing many of the same poor things that cumulatively keep losing games for us, the product put on the floor is owned by Mclaughlin. Period. So I believe he should be held to SOME standard and SOME level of expectation from fans. Hes at the top of the pyramid. He's accountable. To the players. His staff. To Dartmouth. And to us. And believe me, if he makes changes that change our direction and we start winning games and at least showing consistent improvement, I will be at the top of the tallest mountain cheering Mclaughlin and the team on publicly and privately. But for now, I sit so far down in the valley I can't even see the mountain I'm supposed to stand on. Let's hope this changes soon.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 427

Age: 45
Reg: 05-19-16
01-29-17 11:23 PM - Post#219869    
    In response to hoops123

I hope that the incoming recruits don't bail. I don't think there is any letter of intent in the Ivy so there is nothing preventing a recruit from "decommitting". That would further put us in the hole as would any kids leaving the program like Eli Harrison or Stones did in previous years.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4896

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
01-30-17 08:43 AM - Post#219876    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

I think Dartmouth has a nice class coming in. No locks like an Evan Boudreaux, but no filler either. Kids that all could be contributors at the D1 level during their time in Hanover.

I've been confused about the firing of Cormier since I heard the rumblings about a year ago now, but I'd give McLaughlin some time. Let's see where this team can go with another pretty solid class.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 267

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-30-17 09:36 AM - Post#219882    
    In response to hoops123

  • hoops123 Said:
First, I never said I played at Dartmouth.



If you weren't a player, then you aren't the guy I'm thinking of. A former Dartmouth captain (and a great player) did some high school coaching before giving it up and getting into another profession that paid better than HS coaching.

That being said, we probably did know each other in Hanover.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 267

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-30-17 09:38 AM - Post#219883    
    In response to hoopla

  • hoopla Said:
I prefer your brand of criticism:

"Yay?"

And

the "Don't Buy" clip from Arrested Development



Glad you like!

But if calling guys out makes them play better, I'm all for it. Up to the coach to figure out which buttons to push...

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 267

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
01-30-17 10:10 AM - Post#219885    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

  • GoBigGreenBasketball Said:
That would further put us in the hole as would any kids leaving the program like Eli Harrison or Stones did in previous years.



Your mileage may vary, but I don't think the departures of Harrison or Stones were huge losses for us.

Alex Mitola, on the other hand, is another story.

 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 60

Reg: 11-30-16
Cornell Game #1
01-30-17 11:03 AM - Post#219894    
    In response to Go Green

A lot to unpack here.

I'd say first- its pretty reasonable to be honest/harsh in the assessment of the season so far. Generally, this has been an unmitigated disaster and a lot of the blame falls on the coaching staff. IMO the players have also sucked pretty bad.

I think the temperament of the boards comes down to higher expectations for this season- and the idea that we are squandering the potential of a core that we might not see for some time. Boudreaux is on track to be one of the better players in Dartmouth history (if he stays) and we arent doing anything to capitalize on his talent. In that same sense, we are so bad that I've heard the transfer rumors (both above, and elsewhere). I doubt the veracity of these claims- but if he transferred it wouldnt shock me. We suck without much of a roadmap forward. Miles, another piece of this core, is athletic and has potential, but its junior year now and we are still waiting. The crazy inconsistency cant happen as an upperclassmen.

There isn't some miracle cure on the horizon, but I do believe that it starts with playing the youth and building that core around Boudreaux. If the poor (and arguable selfish) play of some guys continue you have to send a message and put them on the bench.

I'd like to eat my words at the end of this season. Lets hope the program gives me reason to.

Edited by SomeDartmouthStudent on 01-30-17 11:05 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3246

Reg: 02-04-06
01-30-17 02:29 PM - Post#219909    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

An outsider speculation is that Cormier was unpleasant but created disciplined play. He was removed in order to get a more positive, player-friendly approach, and the players who used to complain now feel free to play selfishly. That in turn may infect/affect the younger players.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 427

Age: 45
Reg: 05-19-16
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-30-17 04:15 PM - Post#219924    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

  • SomeDartmouthStudent Said:

I'd say first- its pretty reasonable to be honest/harsh in the assessment of the season so far. Generally, this has been an unmitigated disaster and a lot of the blame falls on the coaching staff. IMO the players have also sucked pretty bad.




Could you elaborate, providing deeper insight? What are the coaches not doing that they should be doing and what's going on with our guys, why aren't they performing?
"...no excuses - only results!”


Edited by GoBigGreenBasketball on 01-30-17 04:16 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
hoopla 
Masters Student
Posts: 484

Age: 43
Reg: 08-28-12
Cornell Game #1
01-30-17 05:09 PM - Post#219931    
    In response to SRP

As someone put it, Cormier is not one to lead Kumbaya.

A driven perfectionist and grinder. Tight grip and old school. At times it didn't look fun for him or anyone. A grind, especially because it was such a steep mountain they were climbing. But he can coach, and while not a player favorite for most (probably because he was painfully honest and had specific roles for most of his guys that most of them found too limiting), he is highly regarded by coaching peers for his coaching. "The sum is greater than the parts" he said, and most of these "parts" (and their parents) didn't like this and wondered why they were being developed to fit into a specific role for a cohesive team/plan instead of into the next Kobe Bryant. He will be on a bench next year ala Glenn Miller after he finishes collecting from Dartmouth what I expect is a nice salary for this year's sabbatical.

I heard another former coach at Dartmouth say that he was a thorn in Sheehy's side by advocating mercilessly aka complaining and not drinking the Sheehy koolaid. Paul just couldn't stomach the politics and felt Sheehy was pure politics and a poser. Too bad he couldn't get over it. As a result their egos clashed, and this collision was probably exacerbated by the fact that Sheehy was a hoops coach and probably thought he knew as much as Cormier who spent 18 years as a D1 coach and 12 years in the NBA compared to Sheehy doing 20 years Williams or whatever.

Ultimately a bad, risky, unnecessary call by Sheehy IMO, but both egos are at fault.

Outside the basketball arena, I have seen both Sheehy and Paul captivate an audience and demonstrate humor and ability to connect and build relationships. Both are good people from what I've seen and down to earth conversationalists. But Neither seem like joys to be around when they are anywhere near the frontlines of competition.

Edited by hoopla on 01-30-17 05:17 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 427

Age: 45
Reg: 05-19-16
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-30-17 05:24 PM - Post#219933    
    In response to hoopla

Between the politics of hiring McLaughlin and the firing of Cormier it's starting to form a clearer picture why we're 3-14. If the program isn't about the players and winning you get bottom of the NCAAM performance. You fire a guy who's a thorn in your side who got you to a post season only to hire somebody without D1 HC experience. That's disheartening.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 80

Age: 47
Reg: 12-14-16
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-30-17 05:43 PM - Post#219941    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball


I've heard from insiders about the Cormier firing. Trust me when I tell you the best thing Sheehy has done in his short Dartmouth tenure was replacing Cormier. It was the best thing for Dartmouth College and for current and future players. His career record is 228–322 (.415). We could do better, and I'm hopeful we did.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 427

Age: 45
Reg: 05-19-16
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-30-17 07:02 PM - Post#219958    
    In response to hoops123

Cormier or McLaughlin doesn't matter we need some wins. Who can get us those? Right now were 3-14 (.214). Half as good as we were

.5 x (below average) = atrocious
"...no excuses - only results!”


Edited by GoBigGreenBasketball on 01-30-17 07:05 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4249

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-30-17 07:11 PM - Post#219961    
    In response to hoops123

I'm afraid you need to put that in perspective by comparing it to Dartmouth's record when Cormier is not the coach. You can always theoretically do better, of course, but I think he is quite clearly the best coach in relevant school history.

The simple fact that a lot of other Ivy schools' fans were confused (and maybe a little relieved) when you fired him should tell you something.

 
hoopla 
Masters Student
Posts: 484

Age: 43
Reg: 08-28-12
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-30-17 07:12 PM - Post#219962    
    In response to hoops123

Regarding Cormier: Perplexed and disturbed by the firing of Cormier--like many others--I looked at his record. Looked at the Kenpom stats, and saw the steady growth in key stats, in recruiting, and in rankings at Dartmouth. At a time when the Ivy was rising, he kept pace and then some. Look at where he started and where he ended, both in rankings and in wins.

Cormier is the most successful coach over the last 60 years at Dartmouth. His record, I found, is the result of inheriting nothing but rebuilding projects at each of his stints.

I have heard from insiders, too, both at Dartmouth and in the coaching world. Including prominent alumni who played for him. Essentially, the opposite of what you are spreading about him H123. So I guess we roll in different circles.

Regarding McClaughlin, the rumors of his hire... Doubtful. He is having a tough start but he is young and deserves the time and space. He has it in him, and I'm confident he'll rise to the challenge.

 
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