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Username Post: Cornell Game #1        (Topic#19835)
hoopla 
Masters Student
Posts: 484

Age: 43
Reg: 08-28-12
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-30-17 08:14 PM - Post#219963    
    In response to SomeGuy

Agreed!

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4115

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-30-17 08:18 PM - Post#219965    
    In response to hoopla

Following up on the Kobe Bryant comment, I do think that at least some of the Cormier situation reflects poorly on the players. Yes, a good coach is able to achieve buy in from players and families, and yes, there are obviously situations where a coach's behavior is unacceptable and should not be bought into. However, in most cases, I think the best thing for achieving success is to buy in regardless of what you think your role should be, etc. In some way, it's actually more important than the xs and os. A lot of different approaches work -- what you need is everyone pulling in the same direction. Even if the coach is a jerk, you still need to pull. I'm not sure that has been the case at Dartmouth.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 425

Age: 45
Reg: 05-19-16
01-30-17 08:20 PM - Post#219966    
    In response to hoops123

  • hoops123 Said:
More turnovers than a bakery.



3 T/O, one for a bucket on the other end and the other two resulted in fouls. We started the season out this way.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 425

Age: 45
Reg: 05-19-16
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-30-17 09:05 PM - Post#219974    
    In response to SomeGuy

There are a lot of good things that go into coaching. One of the things I like in a coach is honesty or frankness. I like it when a coach owns his shortcomings to many times its some external factor. What do they say, "A fish rots from the head down" at 0-9 or 3-14 you'd like to hear how we are going to get better from the top down (AD and/or HC). You can't win this game without character.

We lag in a lot of key areas that are unarguably coaching calls. We are last (#351) in NCAAM in FGA and FG, last in 2P and 347 in 2PA...which would be good if we weren't #323 in 3P, #316 in 3PA, and #299 in 3P%. We're lauded for our FT percentage we're #81 with (.730) FT% but we're #310 in FT and #330 in FTA. As great as Boudreaux is in rebounding were #333 in OBR and #345 in DRB... Let me do this.


FG 351st, FGA 351st, FG% 318th, 2P 351st, 2PA 347th, 2P% 288th, 3P 323rd, 3PA 316th, 3P% 299th, FT 310th, FTA 330th, FT% 81st, ORB 333rd, DRB 345th, TRB 347th, AST 351st, STL 347th, BLK 350th, TOV 72nd, PF 346th, PTS 350th, PTS/G 327th


We are not defensive grind it out team nor are we a high power offensive team. We have no distinction in anything we do. That's not a player issue that a style program issue. So you can get buy-in, which from the body language it looks like we have, but if you're executing a flawed strategy to perfection you're still going to get losing results.


"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 49

Reg: 11-30-16
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-30-17 09:19 PM - Post#219977    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

I dont have a ton of additional insight to add. The coaching staff seems and acts inexperienced. The players seem to have bought in, but the upperclassmen seem to be pretty indifferent.

This indifference isn't new. I saw it a lot when Cormier was here and I think it was one of the factors in his dismissal. You need players who care about the program. The upperclassmen now just want to graduate.

Edited by SomeDartmouthStudent on 01-30-17 09:20 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4115

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-30-17 10:13 PM - Post#219987    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

The stats don't really prove the point to me. They just show that Dartmouth isn't doing much of anything well. They don't show precisely why. We do know that they were playing significantly better under Cormier, and I think it is safe to say that, while Boehm was a very good player, he isn't the difference between where they were last year and where they are now. To me, it looks like there is more free lancing and less developed roles than before, but that's something I can't be sure of without being in the huddle. I'm guessing that the coaches don't want the lack of team play, and that's why I question the concept of buy in. It may not be a coincidence that Boudreaux was less of a focal point in the little win streak.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 425

Age: 45
Reg: 05-19-16
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-31-17 12:32 AM - Post#219998    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

  • SomeDartmouthStudent Said:
I dont have a ton of additional insight to add. The coaching staff seems and acts inexperienced. The players seem to have bought in, but the upperclassmen seem to be pretty indifferent.

This indifference isn't new. I saw it a lot when Cormier was here and I think it was one of the factors in his dismissal. You need players who care about the program. The upperclassmen now just want to graduate.




If that is true then why are we giving them minutes? We're wasting development playing time that could be given to the underclassman. If you're trying to change the culture then you best phase out those who are indifferent.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 74

Age: 46
Reg: 12-14-16
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-31-17 02:33 AM - Post#220001    
    In response to hoopla

Hoopla:(My comments) and yours: Regarding Cormier: Perplexed and disturbed by the firing of Cormier like many others (the people on the inside were neither perplexed nor disturbed. Only people that don't know the real reasons he was let go were)I looked at his record. Looked at the Kenpom stats, and saw the steady growth in key stats, in recruiting, and in rankings at Dartmouth. At a time when the Ivy was rising, he kept pace (pretty mediocre standard here)and then some(not so much). Look at where he started and where he ended (huh? see stats below), both in rankings and in wins. (So your measuring stick for his success is the closed universe of Dartmouth Basketball including his finishing at the bottom half of the Ivy League in all but one year (we were 4th)in his most recent stint? We should keep a coach with an awful career coaching record just because he had a couple of decent seasons at Dartmouth over a 13 year career? (First stint: a stellar 47-51 record or .48 winning percentage) (Second and most recent stint: 23-61 for a magical.274 winning percentage. Total Dartmouth winning percentage?? .384. If you "roll" as a head coach with a .384 record at any D1 college program, you get "rolled" out of your job) Oh, and he was 40-64 or .385 winning percentage in between Dartmouth stints at Fairfield. Improving Hoopla?? Where? I don't see any logic here at all. 3 schools, 3 losing records. Sheehy fired (wrong move in my opinion, by the way) Dartmouth Women's Basketball coach Chris Weilgus , who had 12 Ivy League championships, one Patriot League title and seven NCAA Tournament appearances in 28 years! She was a winner! Her overall record: 393-342 Ivy: 227-122. And she got fired! Cormier at Dartmouth: One CIT appearance in 13 years! Did he win the Ivy League even once? Nope. Were there/are there better options out there to lead a Dartmouth team than him? Yep. Lots of them. Hopefully we have one in Mclaughlin. And if you really had inside information, we wouldn't even be having this "discussion".)

Cormier is the most successful coach over the last 60 years at Dartmouth.(In some ways Hoopla, that's like being the biggest kid in kindergarten. It actually means nothing. They won't be erecting any statues of Cormier at Dartmouth. With your line of thinking, if you had 10 coaches during that time and the best one had a 3 win season, we should keep him because he won more than the others?? What if a big time D1 coach that made it to a few final 4's decided to end his career coaching at Dartmouth. We should keep Cormier instead because he was "the most successful" we've had at Dartmouth in 60 years??? That's absurd.) His record, I found, is the result of inheriting nothing but rebuilding projects at each of his stints.(Sounds like excuses for not winning to me. If that's the case, why weren't his recent teams more successful? Remember, he "inherited" his own recruits. And many of his own recruits left under his tutelage. Why? Coincidence? Bad luck? Ask some players why Mitola left. I have. He had to have planned to leave years before he left. If Cormier was such a great coach, why would Mitola risk leaving a starting position and guaranteed playing time as one of the Ivy League's top players for a coming off the bench role at GW? Oh and PS, he never bothered to tell Cormier in advance of his decision. And Cormier himself said he was shocked and surprised by his leaving and that he had no idea he planned to leave. That was in the Valley News. Hmmm. Guessing they weren't exchanging Christmas cards. Ask people in your circles why so many players left his teams? Curious what you discover!)

I have heard from insiders, too, both at Dartmouth and in the coaching world. Including prominent alumni who played for him. Essentially, the opposite of what you are spreading about him H123. So I guess we roll in different circles.(So Hoopla has just accused me of "spreading" essentially "opposite" of what he believes are truths because he believes his "circles" are closer to the truth than mine. Hmmmm. I'm not spreading anything. My opinions are mine and mine alone. This is a chat board for Dartmouth basketball. I support my opinions with opinions of credible people I know that are in the know who I speak to and believe. Readers of this "debate" can make up their own minds. And Hoopla, as you've hopefully noticed, I completely disagree with you on Cormier)

Regarding McClaughlin, the rumors of his hire... Doubtful. (You are welcome to doubt me. Given your positions on some of the things I've said, no surprise there.)He is having a tough start but he is young and deserves the time and space. He has it in him, and I'm confident he'll rise to the challenge.(Hopefully, for the sake of the program. And I hope Mclaughlin is wildly successful. But I'll always take your comments with many grains of salt Hoopla. You've already told us that you thought we should have kept a losing coach with an awful record cause he was "the most successful" Dartmouth ever had. Certainly depends on how one defines "successful". 228–322 (.415)career record. I don't call that "successful". But since you defend Cormier and are clearly against his firing, I'll take that standard into account in our future discussions. Go Big Green!


Edited by hoops123 on 01-31-17 02:42 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4115

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-31-17 07:47 AM - Post#220005    
    In response to hoops123

In terms of Cormier's record, with the steady improvement, I don't think you know where it would/could lead. When you fire him before you find out, you risk going backwards, which is exactly what seems to have happened. The attitude you display (not liking Cormier and saying he needed to be fired, and then ripping on McLaughlin's coaching decisions) is a good way to end up being the Cleveland Browns, quickly firing coach after coach without ever committing to a plan and giving anyone a chance to actually succeed. You say you are an insid, and that is exactly what makes me nervous about the state of the program -- it seems like a situation where everyone is pulling in different directions. History shows that it is very difficult to win at Dartmouth, and it is getting harder, not easier, as 4 Ivy schools are now pulling in top 200 type recruits with some regularity (and a 5th, Columbia, has one coming next year). Dartmouth has an uphill climb to be competitive, and finger pointing isn't going to get it done.

 
ahg46 
Freshman
Posts: 7

Age: 70
Reg: 10-06-15
01-31-17 10:38 AM - Post#220006    
    In response to SomeGuy

Cormier was a good game coach in the IVY league.
This isn't the Big 12, his competition was not all that stiff. He recruited quite well, considering the other school's in the IVY league have better facilities, stronger support from their Alumni, a higher profile and certainly a better geographical location as far as travel to and fro goes. Barring Cornell of course. where Cormier fell short was in his development of his player's, not in his x's and o's game plan. Dartmouth was destined to stay in the middle of the pack with Cormier at the helm.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 241

Age: 45
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-31-17 10:40 AM - Post#220007    
    In response to hoops123

  • hoops123 Said:
If Cormier was such a great coach, why would Mitola risk leaving a starting position and guaranteed playing time as one of the Ivy League's top players for a coming off the bench role at GW? Oh and PS, he never bothered to tell Cormier in advance of his decision. And Cormier himself said he was shocked and surprised by his leaving and that he had no idea he planned to leave. That was in the Valley News. Hmmm. Guessing they weren't exchanging Christmas cards.



Except that Mitola left Dartmouth to join a coach who was, you know.... ACTUALLY fired for misconduct and abuse.

http://www.si.com/college-basketball/20 16/09/16/mi...

Whatever Mitola's reasons for leaving, it probably wasn't because he found Cormier unbearable. Compared to Lonergan, Cormier was probably running the Good Ship Lollipop in Hanover.


 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 425

Age: 45
Reg: 05-19-16
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-31-17 02:22 PM - Post#220013    
    In response to Go Green

Cormier's gone and isn't coming back. McLaughlin is the coach. What matters is the present and the future. That being the case,h ow do you judge our current situation? (open question, not rhetorical). We are 3-14 with graduating seniors and a guaranteed sub .500 season with an ever increasing probability of going winless in league. Right now being mediocre would be an improvement.

We need to raise our standards and our expectations. Consider Josh Pastner over at Georgia Tech in the ACC. He's a new coach to the program and was expected by AD not to win a game in league this year. He is currently 13-8 & 5-4 in the ACC! I'm just saying you can win with a new coach and low expectations even in the toughest league in the NCAAM. Why settle or make excuses? Our school deserves a shot to compete and the Alumni need to expect better from the top to the bottom.

So I ask what is acceptable? Who's going to stand up and own this? What is the course of action and how long is the runway???

"...no excuses - only results!”


 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 74

Age: 46
Reg: 12-14-16
Re: Cornell Game #1
01-31-17 05:21 PM - Post#220017    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Exactly GBGB. Couldn't agree more. I have pursued the Cormier thread because there are a few people that DON'T support Mcglaughlin's hiring and long for Cormier and the good old days(??). They keep bringing up Cormier and the "mistake" that was made in firing him. One poster just said we don't know how it would have played out if we'd waited. Oh, I don't know, but maybe 13 years of Dartmouth Basketball losing and a terrible W/L record would sway most people's opinions. Waiting and hoping that things will change after years of evidence piles up showing statistically that it probably won't is a program death sentence. SO, I'm ready to move on and discuss the here and now (which I was doing until the "we shouldn't have fired Cormier" crowd started using that as an excuse for losing). Mclaughlin has his work cut out for him. So far, after a 3-14 record doing pretty much the same poor things for 17 straight games (yes, even in the games we won), I am not optimistic. As someone on the board rightly said, its not like our pipeline is filled with top rated players. So whats going to change? No idea. The only consistent thing we can bank on is Boudreaux pounding the boards and scoring 16 or so a game night in and night out. Did it all last year and doing it again this year, even double/triple teamed.Let's hope he stays healthy and happy and sticks around. Beyond that and some fairly consistent good play from Barry (why isn't he starting over Fleming??), it's a crap-shoot every night. We never know which player(s) will show up and which won't. But until we start playing team defense aggressively (don't know if we even have the athletes to do this) and consistently, we won't be competitive (read that as top 4. See, even my expectations have been lowered!)in the Ivy League. And we'll have many, many long, frustrating nights ahead of us until Mclaughlin fixes this. That is, if he even can. Fingers crossed. Go Big Green!

 
Corms 
Pre-Frosh
Posts: 3

Age: 38
Reg: 10-17-16
01-31-17 06:45 PM - Post#220018    
    In response to hoops123

I believe my dad is a good coach, otherwise he wouldn't have survived so long and made an entire livelihood from the game in college and the pros. More importantly, my dad is a good man. I've seen him act in ways that have made me wince. I thought he yelled too much and I hated watching him get T's, which happened more when he was younger. My dad was strict with us kids and his players and there was a lot of tough love. He was hard to be around at times, stubborn, etc. but also the center of gravity. As adults my bros and I all look back with appreciation at my dad's approach and I think this is true with a lot of his former players as more time passes.

My dad has strengths and weaknesses, friends and folks who can't stand him. Some unfairly so and some due to his own mistakes I am sure. one thing for sure is that he loves Dartmouth, loves coaching, and loves competition. he iremains close with a number of players and coaches and all of us in the Cormier family have been positively impacted by his relationships and career. Especially Dave Faucher and the Faucher family, Rollie Massimino (his mentor), Pete Guillen, Jim Calhoun, and all of his assistants over the years.

I remember telling my dad when I was very young about people seated behind me screaming that he should be fired in his first year at Fairfield.

Coaching is a tough profession for coaches and their families, so I hope everyone will be patient with Dave. He has a beautiful family. He is a good man and knows basketball. I know this because I played against his college coach! he has a different system and philosophy, and it doesn't matter how good the team is it takes time. Dartmouth is a family and he and his family are now a part of the Big Green family!

I'm probably signing off for good, but just felt a need to weigh in on all the conversation about my dad. Yes, thanks for those who had kind words about my dad, but time to move on and get behind the new coaching staff!

Best to all!

 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 74

Age: 46
Reg: 12-14-16
01-31-17 07:11 PM - Post#220021    
    In response to Corms

Corms: Classy, very well written response. On a personal level, I wish you and your dad nothing but the best in the future and agree that we should get behind Mclaughlin. I urge you to stay on. Would love to hear your experienced opinions on how this team can get better. All the best!

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 425

Age: 45
Reg: 05-19-16
01-31-17 08:35 PM - Post#220023    
    In response to Corms

I know your dad to be a honest and frank guy. Very stand-up coach.

Thanks for contributing to the discussion.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 425

Age: 45
Reg: 05-19-16
Cornell Game #1
02-03-17 03:14 PM - Post#220267    
    In response to Corms

Know that he was respected and appreciated:

Basketball: Winning feels much better - JOSEPH ASCH '79

More praise for Dartmouth coaches
"...no excuses - only results!”


Edited by GoBigGreenBasketball on 02-03-17 03:17 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 241

Age: 45
Reg: 04-22-10
Cornell Game #1
02-03-17 07:16 PM - Post#220295    
    In response to ahg46

  • ahg46 Said:
Dartmouth was destined to stay in the middle of the pack with Cormier at the helm.



This theory has been repeatedly touted in some form or another as justifying Cormier's dismissal.

If its true... then how much more time does Koclanes get? While the women's program is in better shape than when she took over, it has shown no indication that it's going to be competing for championships anytime soon with Koclanes.

Edited by Go Green on 02-03-17 07:17 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 241

Age: 45
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: Cornell Game #1
02-04-17 10:17 AM - Post#220371    
    In response to Go Green

  • Go Green Said:


If its true... then how much more time does Koclanes get? While the women's program is in better shape than when she took over, it has shown no indication that it's going to be competing for championships anytime soon with Koclanes.



Women lose by 30 to Princeton...

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 241

Age: 45
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: Cornell Game #1
02-05-17 08:53 AM - Post#220562    
    In response to Go Green

  • Go Green Said:


Women lose by 30 to Princeton...



Women lose by 30 to Penn...

Losing by a combined 60 on a league weekend may or may not be a record. But it's pretty darn bad.

 
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