bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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02-11-17 09:18 AM - Post#221330
Will the Lions come out and play desperate tonight? They still have control of 4th spot with the other teams losing other than Penn. Coach Engles seems to be having them playing defense unlike some prior year teams. Point spread, around 15pts, seems excessive but we know that the refs will be giving the Tigers all the calls, similar to Penn.
Big game tonight at New Haven. Yale appears to be a 6 pt favorite which also seems high. Perfect world, I think for the Tigers would be Harvard to knock off Yale. In all likelihood, there will be many bodies knocked to the floor. This game will be a good test to see who is the strongest team.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1885
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Columbia
02-11-17 11:18 AM - Post#221338
In response to bradley
but we know that the refs will be giving the Tigers all the calls
We also know that the Columbia coach will make terrible substitutions, not play the best players enough and play the poorest players too much. 
Edited by TigerFan on 02-11-17 11:19 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Columbia
02-11-17 01:34 PM - Post#221360
In response to TigerFan
While I love this team and the way they play, I have to keep reminding myself that only two of our wins thus far have been easy (Brown and Penn #2) and the latter because we had an unusually hot night from three. I don't think that we can expect any of the next seven to be gimmes
And then there is the idiotic tourney giving new life to the losers. Why should any team with a losing record in conference be allowed in the Tourney? If #4 is, say, 6-8, then let the tourney be comprised of only the first three teams with #2 and #3 in a playoff to face #1. Better reward for regular champ and possibly greater chance for second bid. And, no unworthy team getting an unmerited shot at the Dance. Conversely, if the League is so well balanced, the Tourney could include all teams with winning (not break even) records. The bar to entry should be at least that high.
Edited by Tiger69 on 02-11-17 01:38 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Tiger81
Masters Student
Posts: 411
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-11-17 02:21 PM - Post#221369
In response to Tiger69
It seems this year's team plays to the level of the competition. If the Tigers played defense against Dartmouth and Cornell with the the same level of sustained intensity that they brought against Harvard and Yale I don't think those games would have been very close.
The offense also has been erratic which means 10-point leads are as likely to disappear as grow to 20-point cushions. At the end of last season it seemed like most possessions ended in an uncontested trey or a high-quality interior shot, but this year's team has not been able to consistently play at that level. Last night Myles was terrific and bailed the team out of a lot of sequences when the offensive had little flow but that is a riskier strategy than a five-man attack.
It was interesting that Aririguzoh got so much playing time last night. My sense was that his plus/minus was pretty ugly but he sure is big, strong and quick and I hope the coaches can develop him into a productive part of the rotation.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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02-11-17 02:40 PM - Post#221370
In response to Tiger69
It's time for the ritual shattering of Columbia hopes and dreams.
This ought to be an intense game, but Smith can be kept out of the lane, the three-point line guarded, and the defensive boards cleared with the kind of consistent defensive effort we saw in the Brown, Yale, and Penn2 games.
CU plays a lot of zone, mostly a 2-3 where they match up on the ball up top, so crisp passing and spacing will be important. If Princeton has a 40% or better night from three, this will be comfy. 30% or worse will be a nail-biter.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-11-17 02:40 PM - Post#221371
In response to Tiger81
One thing I like about Myles -- he always shows up. High energy (and good judgment) at both ends of the floor. Though still raw, Aririguzoh may have that energy. I have great hopes for him as he gains experience. I believe that he has only played basketball for a few years. His upside may be great.
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JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts: 357
Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
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02-11-17 02:43 PM - Post#221372
In response to Tiger81
It may be that the competition steps up a little more against the Tigers. Hatter and Morgan gave us all we could handle, but perhaps tried to do too much near the end. Tiger team defense is quite interesting to watch, a lot of great switching and communicating. Their doubles are usually protected and often force adjustments leading to less than ideal shots. The key to our success for sure.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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Re: Columbia
02-11-17 03:14 PM - Post#221381
In response to Tiger69
The #4 team in the Ivy League is historically not very good, somewhere around 7-7. There is an argument that it is unlikely that a 4th place team will win the ill-conceived IL Tournament which is probably true 90% of the time but the question remains why? Also, I am not a big fan if a 3rd place team is 9-5 and win the IL Tournament while 1 or 2 teams with 12-2 or better records do not go to the NCAA tournament.
Same thought process exists if the Tigers are 9-5 or 7-7 next year and win the IL tournament. I will root for the IL Champion every year but do not plan to watch the IL Tournament winner play unless they had a strong regular season, including the Tigers.
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joe nassau
Sophomore
Posts: 150
Reg: 02-13-05
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02-11-17 04:29 PM - Post#221390
In response to Tiger81
Maybe they knew that he'll have to play tonite against Columbia. They are actually a bigger team than PU for once although their best big is a perimeter guy? Maybe the other PU bigs will get to play inside as well? Considering how many PU layup attempts against Penn were blocked I'd like to see some drives and dishes that result in layups and dunks but then again I've always been a dreamer?
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JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts: 357
Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
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Re: Columbia
02-11-17 04:34 PM - Post#221392
In response to bradley
Why keep beating this dead horse? We get it: some people are opposed to the tournament. I was as big an opponent as anyone, but that ship has sailed.
The kids want it, the coaches want it and now the AD's do too. You know what I did the day it was announced? I got a room up the street from The Palestra. See you in March!
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Columbia
02-11-17 05:49 PM - Post#221399
In response to JadwinGeorge
George, I'm the biggest whiner about the tournament. But, your point is well taken. However, given that it is not going away, we could still make some modifications to give more favor to the regular champion (no one makes it with a losing regular league record) while still giving worthy runners up a second chance. It still irks me that the NCAA guaranty goes to the tourney winner rather than the regular season champ if the league receives only one bid. The tourney winner should go NIT or get free pizza in my world.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-11-17 06:51 PM - Post#221407
In response to Tiger69
The NCAA Tournament could be the 68 best teams in the country. It is not. It is roughly the 50 best teams in the country plus 18 conference winners.
I have all the sympathy in the world for regular season title holders which are in the Top 68 but don't get an at large after losing their conference tourney. But if you're not in the Top 68, then having a shot at a bid is a gift anyway, one which is given for the explicit purpose of promoting mayhem.
If Princeton ends up clearly in the Top 68 and loses at The Palestra, I will think the Tigers got a raw deal. But if they remain hanging around the 80s/90s in quality and resume metrics, I don't feel bad.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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02-11-17 07:00 PM - Post#221409
In response to mrjames
That's silly. It isn't about the NCAA and what it is striving for, it is about the league and what it ought to be striving for.
At this point, we've mostly felt the pain of the tourney (a disappearance of national discussion of our best teams and their games against each other and a disproportionate attention focus among Ivy fans on the mediocre-to-bad teams). Perhaps that will all be recouped over one weekend, but I wouldn't count on it.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-11-17 07:14 PM - Post#221415
In response to SRP
It's not silly.
If the NCAA wanted to award a championship to the best team, it wouldn't hold a single-elimination tournament with 68 teams. It would probably curate a Top 8 or Top 16 and have long series, much like the NBA does. The NCAA is prioritizing the mix of madness upsets with the law of large(r) numbers that guides us to a Final Four with (mostly) bluebloods. We call the winner of that tournament "champion" even though it's often not the team we would consider to be the best team in the country.
Frankly, I don't think conferences should be eligible to send their champion to the NCAA tournament without staging a conference tournament, because that's the whole premise of March. It's one big national single-elimination tournament, except for a small number of teams that can be eliminated in their conference tourney and be rescued by an at-large bid.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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02-11-17 07:37 PM - Post#221418
In response to mrjames
Again, silly. The issue isn't NCAA values. Who cares what that nest of vipers thinks or wants? The question is, given that tournament, how can the IL best advance its own values and its brand?
As for your no-regular-season-champs proposal for the NCAA tournament, that's beyond absurd, but the sort of thing I would expect from them. I read from Kevin Whitaker that you also support outlawing help defenders taking charges, so perhaps your current French Revolution mood is affecting you. Next up, the metric calendar.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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02-11-17 07:49 PM - Post#221420
In response to Tiger69
Playing with intensity and shooting very well. Everyone is contributing. Columbia plays a good zone defense - Smith looks good as scorer but he is small.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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02-11-17 07:50 PM - Post#221421
In response to SRP
On the topic of the Columbia game, a string of great defensive possessions and some good ball movement and shooting has the Tigers up 15. They even had a classic Pete Miller-to-Spencer Weisz backdoor play.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-11-17 07:50 PM - Post#221422
In response to SRP
Just to be clear, I do not support getting rid of all charges. I support getting rid of all secondary defender charges, which are usually horribly called and involve sometimes violent collisions. I continue to support primary defenders' ability to draw charges.
If Princeton fans are so concerned about the tournament, the Tigers could have held on against Cal, Monmouth and/or VCU and made winning at The Palestra irrelevant. They didn't, and now they have to do it the hard way.
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JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts: 357
Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
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02-11-17 07:52 PM - Post#221423
In response to mrjames
Calm down Mr. James
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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02-11-17 07:55 PM - Post#221424
In response to mrjames
That's exactly what I said--you want to eliminate help defense unless someone is a shot-blocker. That is such a terrible idea that I can't believe anyone would seriously propose it.
Those OOC wins would have been nice, but are irrelevant to the question of whether a one-bid league with a distinctive profile ought to have a conference tournament. I'm not complaining about PU specifically with the tournament. It's the manifest above-unity cost/benefit ratio for the league as a whole that bothers me.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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02-11-17 08:42 PM - Post#221429
In response to SRP
Now only up 2 with 0:28 seconds left and ready to inbound the ball. CU has hit a ton of really deep treys while the Tigers have missed a lot of open shots.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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02-11-17 08:49 PM - Post#221430
In response to SRP
Killingsworth had a great look for a trey but missed it badly. Not a good job of closing out the game by PU, although the use of all those fouls to bleed down the clock on the Lions' last possession was good.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-11-17 09:05 PM - Post#221433
In response to mrjames
With only one bid, the chance to play in the NCAA tournament is a great part of what the league title is all about. So, if we are going to trash the value of that championship, let's go all the way and let all eight teams into the tourney. Then, at least, the champ gets an easier opener.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-11-17 09:08 PM - Post#221434
In response to SRP
Hey, Amir. You have four other teammates on the floor!
Ugly finish, but we squeaked by. Teachable moment?
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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02-11-17 10:51 PM - Post#221451
In response to SRP
Tigers slowdown offense from the 12 minute mark was designed to hold the ball until 10 seconds on the clock shot and then get off a good shot -- not a fan of this approach. They got good looks but shot nothing but 3 pointers and missed badly. Lions made some very difficult and long shots to their credit.
What should have been a much easier weekend turned out far more difficult than it should have been but they are 8-0 with a big game coming up in New Haven next Friday night.
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joe nassau
Sophomore
Posts: 150
Reg: 02-13-05
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02-12-17 04:35 PM - Post#221582
In response to bradley
Strange game. Weiss disappeared on offense although did have 4 assists. Bigs a non factor. Wonder what Mitch has against bigs? Musta been some big guy who hazed him in private school?
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2272
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-12-17 10:33 PM - Post#221636
In response to joe nassau
I was at the game--drove up from Baltimore. Sat directly behind the Princeton bench. Viewing angles were tough for the far end of the court, but nice to be able to hear the coaches. Two things I learned that I could not tell from TV:
Kittles is very active and vociferous.
Myles Stephens is even more talented in person--man is he quick to the hoop.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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02-14-17 10:16 PM - Post#221842
In response to mrjames
"If Princeton ends up clearly in the Top 68 and loses at The Palestra, I will think the Tigers got a raw deal. But if they remain hanging around the 80s/90s in quality and resume metrics, I don't feel bad."
I have found the recent conversation on the Penn Board interesting regarding the location of the IL Tournament and the discussion of a possible second bid in the context of your comments. The reality is that Princeton cannot get into the top 68 even if they run the table in the Ivy League and finish 14-0. Why -- Princeton's performance in non-league play, the performance of IL teams in non-conference play and the degree of difficulty as to non-league games. If Princeton beat all six remaining IL teams by 20+ points (laugh/laugh) and walk on water, they would not get in the top 68 and even if they did, they would not get a bid. If Princeton finished 10-4 in non-league play with two good wins rather 7-6, they may have gotten a bid with a 14-0 or 13-1 record IL record -- challenging task to say the least. Yale or Harvard would not have gotten a bid as well based on their non-conference record and the other factors cited above if they finished 14-0.
Bottom line is that it was at the very least premature to introduce the IL tournament until non-conference scheduling and overall performance improves so that a second bid is realistic. No one on the Princeton forum has ever suggested that the Tigers deserve a bid this year as they were accountable for their non-league performance. The margin is extremely tight currently for the IL to receive two bids. As a matter of fact, some Tiger fans have argued that other teams, i.e. Yale or Harvard may feel the same effect next year. Ironically it does not seem to concern you that a #218 rpi team may represent the IL. A better argument at this time might be that it will be exciting at the Palestra.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1885
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-15-17 01:27 AM - Post#221869
In response to bradley
The Tigers are currently #69 in the RPI. I am not a fan of that ratings system but it has been the favorite of the selection committee for many years (although unfortunately they seem to deviate from it when mid-majors' RPIs are very high). Look no further than the "bracketologists," who earn their notoriety by predicting the brackets that the committee puts together--last time I checked, their predictions tracked the RPI more closely than any of the other ratings systems. Of course the committee does not choose the top 68 teams under any ratings system (nor would we want them too) because some of the leagues' representatives are invariably ranked well below 100, sometimes into the 200s.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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02-15-17 01:30 AM - Post#221870
In response to bradley
The best 68 teams don't make the tournament. Often, conference champs are ranked lower, which leapfrogs lower ranked teams into those spots you seem to consider reserved for top 68 squads. For instance, there look to be roughly 20 conferences that don't have any teams rated in the top 68. Those champions - and any tournament underdog champions in the other larger school conferences - fill spots, resulting in less at large openings. I'm sure someone has historical results and can identify the ranking of the final at large slot handed out. I've got to think that ranking is somewhere around 45th to 50th or so. That's why the last at large bid often lands as an 11th/12th seed. I believe that last year KenPom #50 Michigan may have been the last at large selection, earning an 11th seed.
Thus, for the Ivies to get a second bid, the non-conference tournament winner needs to be a top 50 team, not top 68.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1885
Reg: 11-21-04
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Columbia
02-15-17 09:31 AM - Post#221884
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
HARVARDGRAD are you trolling us? Princeton ended the season at RPI #38 last year yet there was no #2bidivy (and yes I know the RPI is a lousy system, but the powers that be use it--although not in that instance).
(I'd welcome an analysis showing that I'm wrong and that the selection committee has used other ratings systems more than the RPI but I don't expect any. At this point I'm afraid more advanced analytics are just an academic exercise.)
Edited by TigerFan on 02-15-17 09:35 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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02-15-17 09:54 AM - Post#221886
In response to TigerFan
Absolutely not! I had no idea of last year's Princeton RPI. I just wanted to correct the use of the 'top 68' because the threshold is actually higher. My point is that a second Ivy bid is going to be tough - for Harvard, Princeton and the others - especially when there is anti-midmajor bias.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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02-15-17 10:17 AM - Post#221887
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I agree with you that the benchmark is around 50 and it is very difficult for a mid-major, particularly an Ivy League team to hit this threshold. A-10, a very good league, probably gets two bids this year. Princeton recently played 5 games over 14 days, 3 games on the road, won all five and regressed several spots on Kenpom. Why, the RPI rankings of the Ivy League teams based on their non-conference scheduling and performance. I was a big fan of Henderson taking the Tigers on a magical mystery tour all of the country to chase a top 50 ranking rather than leave it up to the two day randomness of an IL Tournament.
Sears and Sherrod deserved to go to the NCAA tournament last year. The Tigers had an opportunity to play Yale in a playoff game but they lost a two point game to Harvard. They had beaten Yale, albeit at home, earlier in the year and the Tigers may have beaten Yale if there was an IL tournament. That would not mean that the Tigers would have earned the trip from my perspective.
Bottom line for me, is that I have no interest in watching the IL Tournament. If the winner of the IL Tournament is the regular season champ or co-champ, I will certainly root them on at the Big Dance. Does not matter in a given year if it is Princeton, Penn or Dartmouth. The arguments made by the 2nd bid opponents seem to drift around for convenience sake.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-15-17 10:37 AM - Post#221891
In response to bradley
Is there a job more inane and ridiculous job than a "bracketologist"? Something for all those communication majors who can't get jobs as perky TV weather persons to aspire to. 
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sparman
PhD Student
Posts: 1345
Reg: 12-08-04
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02-18-17 07:10 PM - Post#222341
In response to Tiger69
So apparently there is widespread belief on the Columbia board that Lions would have won this game (plus the Harvard game, but like Johnny Mathis advises, not for us to say, right?) easily if not for silly Lion coachimg mistakes.
Meanwhile they may not make it to the IL tournamemt at their current rate.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-18-17 07:32 PM - Post#222342
In response to sparman
Beats blaming the refs
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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02-18-17 10:56 PM - Post#222403
In response to palestra38
Columbia chokes another one away at Dartmouth, and now RasPennTin comes to life once more. They could lost at Yale tomorrow, sweep the rest and end up facing PU in Round One at the Palestra. There is no justice. Maybe the Tigers should just tank against Columbia.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-19-17 01:23 AM - Post#222421
In response to SRP
Curious. How did Penn manage to put off Yale an additional day? Not a bad idea to give the legs an extra day to recover. Is there a reason why we don't also play Friday/Sunday games? Saturday classes?
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-19-17 01:32 AM - Post#222422
In response to Tiger69
Cornell at Penn (last week) and Penn at Yale (this week) were moved to Sunday for television purposes, at the request of the ASN network, prior to the start of the season.
Please direct your suggestions and complaints to ASN, a division of Sinclair Broadcasting.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-19-17 01:47 AM - Post#222424
In response to Stuart Suss
Thanks for reply.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-19-17 11:42 AM - Post#222446
In response to Tiger69
I asked the same question last week on the Penn board---the Ivy League playing for a TV contract.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1885
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-19-17 11:52 AM - Post#222448
In response to palestra38
Seems like an unfair advantage for road teams to get an extra day for travel and rest. Surprised there aren't a lot of complaints about this, unless there is a move afoot to make all the games go to Friday/Sunday. Are the Ivy traditions dying one by one?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-19-17 12:27 PM - Post#222452
In response to TigerFan
Well, last week it did not help Cornell---they were down 42-14 at the half.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-19-17 01:22 PM - Post#222456
In response to palestra38
The travel between Penn and Princeton is minimal. The Cornell-Columbia and Harvard-Dartmouth trips, however, can be a different story particularly when the weather is not good.
Really, does it matter whether Penn plays Yale today or last night? For TV purposes, I guess it does, but I can't imagine the travel takes much if any of a toll.
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