dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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02-15-17 12:39 AM - Post#221866
In response to SteveChop
Is every school going to get enough money from this tournament to make up for that revenue from a 28th game? e.g. a trip to Duke, UNC, etc, where you get a nice fat check to have your brains beaten in.
Robin Harris specifically disclaimed any interest in making money from this thing, so I'd say the answer is no.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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02-15-17 12:40 AM - Post#221867
In response to mrjames
I actually like the removal of the 28th game and I'd gladly remove another for the right to play in an MTE every year.
And after all, playing in an MTE would make up at least one game anyway, and often two.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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02-15-17 12:47 AM - Post#221868
In response to Streamers
My guess is all those might become available if booked far enough in advance and economically feasible if the turnout this year indicates the gate would be favorable.
As far as the gate goes, I've been watching the seating chart carefully since tickets went on sale. Suffice it to say that they're not exactly flying out the door. Granted, most of the good seats are obviously reserved for the participants, and I'm sure the fans of the teams that seem likely to make it at this point are waiting for those to become available, but still, it's not a promising start.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-15-17 08:55 AM - Post#221878
In response to dperry
I don't think that's right. I think 6-8 gets us in (if, as you posit, we win at Columbia), and that means we could conceivably lose to both Harvard and Yale.
The problem, of course, is getting to 6-8. With 4 road games left (and no road wins as of yet), it's a tall order. Obviously need (at least) a split this weekend.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4360
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-15-17 09:05 AM - Post#221879
In response to SomeGuy
You are correct. there is a very clear path to the tournament for Penn without the need to beat either Yale or Harvard. That path would require us to beat Brown, Columbia and Cornell on the road and Dartmouth at home. Penn would need to play consistently good basketball, something we haven't done so far this year.
At least we seem to have a settled rotation which SD took way too long to establish. Next challenge is teaching Dev Goodman to keep his left arm down when he dribbles the ball. I'm not sure if that is something new that is just happening instinctively, but it's an obvious offensive foul that will get called every time. I think he had 3 of those on Sunday. That's the equivalent of 3 TO's.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-15-17 09:21 AM - Post#221881
In response to dperry
We're starting to bleed a little bit over from hobby into day job, so I'll just say one thing and leave it there, but there are definitely ways to play at a neutral site in the northeast for minimal cost depending on how you want to structure your downside protection and participation in upside.
I've said all along that I care far more about MTEs every year than having a conference tournament. Strategically, those are the best shots for us to make noise - good teams on a neutral court on national television. The league should be *incentivizing* participation in those because they mostly happen over holidays and usually take the place of a far-more-poorly-timed adventure to a power conference school far away while class is in session.
I don't hate the conference tournament, though. Gone are the embarrassing days when it was Penn, Princeton and a bunch of teams in the 200s & 300s (and once in awhile it was seven teams down there). Of the five Tier A/B non-conference wins the league got this year, just one belongs to our presumptive number one seed, two belong to a team most likely to finish third and two more belong to a team most likely to miss the tourney. During this amazing seven-season run we've been on, only two races (Harvard 2012 & 2014) have involved a team that clearly should be our rep - the remainder have been pretty tight where the difference between 1 and 2 seed would have been, at most, a seed line. This year, Princeton, Harvard and Yale would all be looking at a 13 or 14 depending on how other tourney upsets go (Yale might slide to the 15, but probably wouldn't).
If you like the sanctity of the 14-Game Tournament, there's no way to convince you, but I think it could play well for us this year. Harvard with a turnover rate under 20% is the best team we have, and turnover rate declines over the course of the season. I like that we'll find out in March if they can do it. As we've seen from the myriad non-one-seeds from one-bid leagues to pull upsets, not sending your regular season champ isn't necessarily a death knell to your chances.
I'm going to wait and see how it plays out. There were other things I wish they had fixed first, but I'm not going to bury this venture before it even happens.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-15-17 09:26 AM - Post#221882
In response to AsiaSunset
Agreed, although hopefully for Dev that is a Cornell specific problem. Hatter in particular can be annoying with the pressure up the court (the Columbia board always complains about it, too). Whether out of frustration or the feeling of constant pressure, it seems like he kind of drives you to want to push him away. Definitely something Dev needs to learn, of course, but I'm not sure how often he'll really be exposed to the situation on that level.
Even with the fouls, I thought Goodman kept his cool, which was great to see from a freshman.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-15-17 11:42 AM - Post#221894
In response to dperry
I would also argue that the IL tournament will make our conference stronger overall and increase our chances at a second team. Players want to play meaningful games late in the season and the carrot of getting a spot in a 2 game tourney to make the NCAA's in addition to an IL degree is some serious bait for every league school to improve their recruiting.
Were the Big 10 and Pac-10 suffering all those years they didn't have tournaments? Were we the worst league in the country when we were the only one without a tournament? Since the great improvement in talent of the last few years happened without a tournament, the best you can say is that it's a very tiny factor in recruits' decisions.
Apples and Oranges. You can't say it's a tiny factor in recruit's decisions because it's never happened before this year. We don't know and can't know the impact on recruiting. The point I was making is Penn/Columbia/Brown and even the 3 seed candidates can all tell their recruits they will be playing meaningful games in March, games that give them a chance at the NCAA tournament. They can bring those recruits to campus to see these battles take place and recruits can envision themselves pushing said team into a conference tournament spot where the carrot of getting hot and winning a couple games to make it to the NCAA tournament is a pretty juicy proposition for arrogant 18 year olds. In year's past if you went to Cornell, Columbia, Brown and lately Penn, the thought of an NCAA tournament bid was long gone by the end of January.
We have never had that before and to think it won't be a factor in recruiting seems counter intuitive to me.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8236
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Cornell
02-15-17 11:50 AM - Post#221896
In response to penn nation
Now called Webster Bank Arena and I agree 100%. Seen both hockey and basketball there--a great place to watch a game, good sized venue.
I had forgotten about this one (Fairfield's home court?) I have never been there but the location and size are right. With a year's notice, it might be available unless Fairfield catches a home court post season game. We would likely need to schedule around that possibility.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Cornell
02-15-17 12:08 PM - Post#221898
In response to Streamers
Monmouth's court also is very nice and new.
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gopenngo
Masters Student
Posts: 487
Reg: 01-30-06
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Re: Cornell
02-15-17 12:37 PM - Post#221903
In response to palestra38
Lehigh's Stabler seats 6,000 and URI's Ryan seats 7,000.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4360
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-15-17 12:47 PM - Post#221904
In response to PennFan10
Totally apples to oranges. Those schools have scholarships, lower academic hurdles and importantly giant TV contracts. The kids play before packed houses on campuses where the game is a central focus of the student bodies and the locals that live within driving distance, not to mention the exposure they get from MTE's.
I think a good case could be made that a league tournament is redundant for leagues that get 7 or 8 bids and that it's just a money maker and not much more. But - that has little to do with our situation.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8236
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-15-17 12:49 PM - Post#221905
In response to gopenngo
URI & Lehigh might make sense (I actually kind of like Lehigh's place.) Monmouth at 4100 feels too small to me. Webster Bank is the closest I think to ideal if we could get it. I really think, subject to what happens this year, we need an minimum of 6000 capacity. Penn fans alone would fill more than half of that if it's as easy trip from NYC and/or Philly.
I fully expect this year, the tournament first day will draw at least 6000 if Penn does not make it and closer to capacity if Penn makes it. Don't let the pre-sale fool you, there will be late buyers and the resellers are certainly not a factor.
But puhleez, no more talk about cramming more seats into Jadwin. Many of the ones they have are awful as it is.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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Cornell
02-15-17 01:25 PM - Post#221907
In response to Streamers
Actually, on the second sublevel of Jadwin (beneath the Jai Alai fronton), there is an ancient Tinker Toy set, which, if constructed on the open side of Jadwin, adds 8000 seats up to the roof. That allows Princeton to advertise Jadwin as a 16000 seat arena
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-15-17 02:07 PM - Post#221912
In response to palestra38
If we want to keep EVERYONE engaged, let's go all the way with a SEVEN team tournament (Sorry, #8. Someone has to be a loser. 1st round bye for real champion), games played on home court of higher seed, with final at the Palestra. Already, I've read more sanity above than has ever come out of Robin Harris' office.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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Re: Cornell
02-15-17 02:09 PM - Post#221913
In response to palestra38
Pretty darn funny and more than a kernel of truth.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23368
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-15-17 02:56 PM - Post#221918
In response to bradley
Everyone's a winner. All 8 should get into the tournament. Give the higher seeds a 2 point lead at the opening jump to reward them for their regular season excellence.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-15-17 03:14 PM - Post#221919
In response to 10Q
You know, that's not a bad idea, but the remedy is the wrong one. We can mathematically compute the difference in the teams by points on a neutral court (home for Penn) and then start the game with, say, Princeton having a 10 point lead against Dartmouth. If Dartmouth wins, hats off....but they had to overcome a significant handicap based on the regular season.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23368
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-15-17 03:31 PM - Post#221921
In response to palestra38
Yes!!
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3775
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-15-17 03:35 PM - Post#221922
In response to 10Q
Rather than handicapping with points, why don't we just tie bricks to the ankles of the lower-seeded team's players? The size and shape of the brick would be determined by their overall team efficiency.
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