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Username Post: Yale, etc        (Topic#19929)
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2003

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: Yale, etc
02-21-17 08:12 PM - Post#222930    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

After last weekend how can you pose Yale as our "best" NCAA representative? Seriously? Possibly, another year.

You did go to harvard, did you not?



 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3084

Reg: 02-04-06
02-21-17 08:41 PM - Post#222935    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

I disagree that there is a hole at the center position. Miller is underrated and has really picked it up lately, Gladson has been solid if a tad slow and inexperienced, and Brennan has shown flashes in his short minutes. Even Aririguzoh hasn't looked bad. The small lineup has been a function of having five nearly interchangeable defenders who are all good on offense in Bell, Cannady, Cook, Stephens, and Weisz and that being too good of a mismatch to resist at times.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 808

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
02-21-17 11:24 PM - Post#222958    
    In response to SRP

Against Power 5 squads I think Princeton's centers could be a decisive liability. Remember - 0 pts and 0 rbs as a group against Harvard. Not a single big averages even 3pts. Henderson has to double aggressively against opposing centers.

Princeton is good, but not at this position.


 
SecS3 
Freshman
Posts: 26

Age: 69
Reg: 03-17-16
02-21-17 11:31 PM - Post#222959    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Miller is overrated by most Princeton fans. If Brase had been able to play last year we might have had a couple of good wins.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2003

Reg: 11-23-04
02-22-17 01:32 AM - Post#222964    
    In response to SecS3

I strongly disagree. Miller's strength is that he gives us what we need when we need it. He is a quiet and completely unselfish player. Last season he bailed us out twice in league games when the rest of our offense went silent. He is a good and hardworking defender and rebounder who usually takes away the inside game of much glossier opponents. He buys into our team approach. You'll never hear him whine. As hard as Hans Brase played, he was often overmatched by taller opponents. If we could only have one or the other this season, we were lucky it was Pete Miller.

 
Tiger81 
Freshman
Posts: 84
Tiger81
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-22-17 06:01 AM - Post#222968    
    In response to Tiger69

Well said Tiger69. Clearly Miller and the other centers don't present a game-planning challenge compared to the rest of the starters and Bell. But they know their role to make the offense hard to defend and they execute it well. Ball screens, spacing, and passing from the 5 spot are much more important than scoring for this year's team. And when the team has needed rebounds and blocked shots, Pete Miller has been a dependable contributor. If the team makes it to the NCAA's it will be due to a consistently stout defense and an offense with many weapons and Miller has been a big part of both even if his box score numbers are not impressive.

 
TigerFan 
Masters Student
Posts: 871

Reg: 11-21-04
02-22-17 07:45 AM - Post#222973    
    In response to Tiger81

I completely agree. And look what he did against Brown when they chose to focus on the other four Tigers--a quick 10 points from Pete made a big difference.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 808

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
02-22-17 11:37 AM - Post#222992    
    In response to TigerFan

Miller definitely contributes - against some teams. His better games are against smaller Ivy squads. My point - which started this part of the discussion - was that Miller (and Brennan/Gladson) don't stack up well against bigger athletic squads, a weakness that could be exploited in the NCAA's. Against Harvard, Miller started, played 2 minutes, committed a foul, was pulled - and Henderson never played him again. Again, none of those three scored or grabbed a rebound in 32 combined minutes.

I started to look at a few boxscores and stopped after two games. My observation is evidenced by what Mika (26pts/18rbs) and Kempton (24pts/11reb) did in Princeton's first two games. (Yes, Brase played, but so did the others.) My point is that Princeton's bigs are a problem against a bigger talented opponent. If that opponent can play two or three big athletic guys (AZ, 'Cuse), what happens to Princeton's offense if two of Miller/Brennan/Gladson have to be on the court at the same time?

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 479

Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
02-22-17 11:47 AM - Post#222995    
    In response to Tiger81

A wish at the beginning of the year was that the Tigers would develop the capability to play two bigs at the same time when they might face a ACC, Big Ten, etc. in the NCAA championship. I was not sure if they needed two bigs in defending Harvard bigs which was the only Ivy League team of some concern. Last year, the Tigers had issues when facing the size of Maryland and Miami as Weisz and/or Caruso gave up too much size down deep. I was surprised that Henderson did not try Brase and Miller together at the beginning of the season to develop this capability.

Fortunately, Stephens got added to the mix and he certainly plays bigger than his height. Weisz is much better as a deep down defender this year and Cook seems to have added a few inches to his leaping ability. No one other than VCU has provided physical issues over the Tigers but that may change if they go to the Big Dance. It will be interesting to see if the Harvard bigs have more success at Jadwin than Lavietes.

The only Ivy big who plays the post continuously, Downey, had little success against Miller and crew but surprisingly had 15 pts/14 rebounds against Harvard -- go figure.

 
SecS3 
Freshman
Posts: 26

Age: 69
Reg: 03-17-16
02-22-17 12:32 PM - Post#222999    
    In response to bradley

Afraid I have to agree with Harvarddadgrad on this.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 808

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
02-22-17 12:41 PM - Post#223001    
    In response to bradley

I agree that Princeton is mostly made up of small forwards/big guards who can body up against forwards. I'm talking about legitimate athletic bigs. Harvard only plays one big scoring threat at a time - Zena or Lewis - and neither can score away from the basket. The reason Zena/Lewis didn't score much is the double teaming by the opposite guard on EVERY possession. Despite that, Lewis eventually learned to split the double team for 11pts on 5-6 shooting.

Suggesting that Princeton didn't see strong bigs seems to forget Mika and Kempton.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2003

Reg: 11-23-04
Yale, etc
02-22-17 01:22 PM - Post#223011    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

It is the TEAM that wins games, not the individual. Remind me again, who is still in first place, having thusfar defeated all those teams with higher rated front courts?

Of course, harvard, with all its shiny 3 and 4 star recruits must be a better representative of the IL. Why bother having a regular season at all, if it might jeopardize h's chance to represent the league.

Oh, wait a minute! We have a tourney to thwart any unworthy or inconvenient winner of the regular season championship! Order can be restored for the choice of our NCAA rep. Why, maybe even a great team with a mediocre record like Penn can prevail!

Now, if we could only convince the NCAA to move all its tournament games to the Magic Palestra ....

Edited by Tiger69 on 02-22-17 01:24 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3084

Reg: 02-04-06
02-22-17 02:09 PM - Post#223020    
    In response to Tiger69

Miller had a bad start against Mika and Kempton. I suspect that Brase starting ahead of him affected his confidence, because those were his two worst defensive games since freshman year. (Of course, a lot of those points were scored with him off the floor, but still, he was not sharp.) He was good against Cal's Ivan Raab and the Bucknell guy, where there was little double-teaming.

Also, the point of bringing the hard double isn't just to shut down the Brodeurs and Lewises. It is to jam up the other team and make them throw bad passes and/or have to reset. Even if Miller can contain his man without help, passes out of the post on that man's schedule have presented problems; some of the Tigers have struggled with man-you-ball orientation when the man and ball are on opposite sides of their body, and their rotations were slower. The double-team was addressing those problems so well that we saw it a lot against Brown, even though their inside guys are less of a threat.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 479

Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
02-22-17 02:15 PM - Post#223021    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

You are right about Mika and Kempton scoring a lot of points primarily on Brase who was really a power forward both offensively and defensively. My point was that it is good to have two bigs on the floor when you play power conferences and the Ivies including Princeton and Harvard have not developed two big defenders on the floor at the same time without slowing down their offense to a stall. It is a weakness for both teams if they get the automatic bid.

By the way, Lewis got 4 of his 11 points on breakaways due to poor passes by Cannady and Stephens at Lavietes. He did not show much of an offensive game but he certainly has a lot of talent. In the past, there has a fair amount of discussion regarding Zena's game as to POY possibilities and first team Ivy League -- that ship has obviously sailed but he still has the opportunity to right the ship.

 
1LotteryPick1969 
PhD Student
Posts: 1362
1LotteryPick1969
Age: 66
Loc: Baltimore, Maryland
Reg: 11-21-04
02-23-17 07:21 AM - Post#223085    
    In response to SRP

  • SRP Said:
Miller had a bad start against Mika and Kempton.

.........the hard double isn't just to shut down the Brodeurs and Lewises. It is to jam up the other team and make them throw bad passes and/or have to reset.



Exactly correct. The biggest change I see over the course of this year is the implementation of the quick hard double on anyone in the low post, now even if the big is not a particular scoring threat. I suspect it was a direct response to the troubles with Mika and Kempton.

The team now executes it quickly and automatically, and it is fun to watch. The double starts with the pass, not with the catch, and the weak side rotation is quick to defend the man whose defender has moved down low. They also know how to rotate back and find the open man when the ball leaves the post. The open shot is in the opposite corner, but by the time the ball gets there, the man is usually covered again, although often by flying at him.

I wonder how much Kittles has contributed to this strategy.

And put me down as someone who likes Miller quite a bit, despite his stats. The statement about a glaring hole at center is a bit ad hominem for my taste, considering players and families could be reading this board.




 
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