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Username Post: Yikes        (Topic#19932)
hoopla 
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02-12-17 07:08 PM - Post#221605    

The women lost 2 at home this weekend and are now 6-15, 1-7.



 
Go Green 
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Re: Yikes
02-13-17 07:21 AM - Post#221647    
    In response to hoopla

  • hoopla Said:
The women lost 2 at home this weekend and are now 6-15, 1-7.





The Valley News wrote a fairly long article at the beginning of the season basically saying that Koclanes wasn't getting it done.

The team has done very little to prove the VN wrong this season.

 
hoopla 
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02-13-17 11:02 AM - Post#221677    
    In response to Go Green

I was more irritated by the men's "lost season", but if we can pull off 4 out of the next 6, we might have a shot!

 
hoopla 
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02-13-17 11:18 AM - Post#221686    
    In response to hoopla

Go Green, do you think men or women will finish with better record overall and ivy?

 
Go Green 
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Yikes
02-13-17 11:27 AM - Post#221691    
    In response to hoopla

  • hoopla Said:
Go Green, do you think men or women will finish with better record overall and ivy?



Given that the only two home games the women have left on the schedule are Penn and Princeton, and given that they lost first game to them each by 30 points, it is very difficult seeing the women win another game. Although I certainly hope they do.

So for the better Ivy record, the men seem like a safer bet.

I'd also venture that the men will end up with more wins overall. They are only one behind the women (unfortunately) and even the projections think that we will pick up two more. Hopefully it will be more than that.

Still plenty of time for a strong finish. But neither team is having a particularly memorable year thus far.

Edited by Go Green on 02-13-17 11:32 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
hoopla 
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02-13-17 09:16 PM - Post#221760    
    In response to Go Green

Are there any Dartmouth teams doing well this year? Other than the programs with traditional success like men's soccer, are any of the new coaches "getting it done?"

I'm mainly depressed about men's hoops this year but this has caused me to look around at other programs.

Go Green I'd love your take on state of Dartmouth Athletics.

 
Go Green 
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02-13-17 10:13 PM - Post#221768    
    In response to hoopla

  • hoopla Said:
Are there any Dartmouth teams doing well this year? Other than the programs with traditional success like men's soccer, are any of the new coaches "getting it done?"




Women's rugby was an example of firing/not renewing the contract of a longtime older coach in favor of someone younger.... and things working out fine so far.

  • hoopla Said:

Go Green I'd love your take on state of Dartmouth Athletics.



Will oblige later.

 
Go Green 
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Yikes
02-15-17 09:13 AM - Post#221880    
    In response to hoopla

  • hoopla Said:

Go Green I'd love your take on state of Dartmouth Athletics.



The state of Dartmouth athletics all depends on where you think the baseline should be.

On a 10,000 foot level, men’s athletics seem to be doing fine from a historical perspective in the fall and spring sports. True, football took a step back, but I’m in the camp that 2016 was an aberration where talented but untested guys just couldn’t put it together for whatever reason. I’m optimistic that we will be in the thick of things in 2017. Soccer advanced in the NCAA. Baseball lost the Rolfe Division in a playoff—and that was the earliest exit we’ve had in a long while. Cross-country went to the NCAA yet again other Fall and Spring sports more or less held with their historical norms.

Winter, the men could be doing better. We’ve discussed basketball to death. Hockey isn’t doing that great, but it’s been a while since men’s hockey has been relevant.

The women, in my opinion, are underperforming. Lacrosse, field hockey, ice hockey, and basketball are not nearly the powers they used to be. Tennis and softball have historically been weak, but have been bright spots for us in recent years. Rugby is fine. Cross county will never be as good as it was during the D’Agostino years, and that’s fine. Volleyball has never been good and probably never will be. Ditto for swimming.

What’s happened with the women? Part of it is the financial aid. Part of it is that Dartmouth took women’s athletics seriously from the get-go and we got off to a fast start as a result. The others have caught up. Part of it is that the urban campuses in the league aren’t nearly the shitholes that they used to be, so parents are more comfortable sending young Molly to Philadelphia or New Haven instead of Hanover than a generation ago.

Sheehy has certainly tried to shake things up. Thus far, it looks like he’s missed more than he’s hit. As I said before, the Valley News all but threw down the gauntlet with Koclanes earlier, and the team wasn’t able to rise to the challenge in her defense. My understanding is that Princeton, Penn, and Harvard all have brought in excellent basketball recruits, and we’re not keeping pace. I’m sure Koclanes is a great coach and that people enjoy playing for her. While I’m not saying Wielgus should have been retained, I see little evidence that the team will be competing for a championship anytime soon with Koclanes.

As for McLaughlin, I’ve said I’m willing to give him time. I like Cormier a lot, but I’ll concede that Cormier probably had a ceiling and probably wasn’t going to compete for championships. Having said that, like everyone else, I think the men’s basketball team has underachieved since he left.

I’m very interested in seeing how the new women’s lacrosse coach does. She’s got incredible credentials. Really a shame that the Patton era ended the way it did. My best guess is that Patton didn’t adapt and some of the tactics that worked with players in the 1990s and early 2000s were taken poorly by players in the 2010s. Probably would make a great story for an article if people are willing to be honest and open about what happened.

Women’s rugby is one team where it appears Sheehy made the right call. Coach Archambault was pretty much the rugby equivalent of Coach Wielgus. Her better days were probably behind her. The new coach has two years and two Ivy titles. Would be nice if they went a little deeper in the NCAAs, but hopefully that will come soon enough.

I’m not sure how many more bullets Sheehy has left in his guns. Facilities have been modernized—and I hope that indoor practice building gets the go-ahead soon. Financial aid will never be as good as HYP. I think Hanover is a tremendous place to go to college, but we can’t sell it as a comparative “safe haven” the way we could in the 1980s and 1990s.

So we will see…


Edited by Go Green on 02-15-17 09:17 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
hoopla 
Masters Student
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Reg: 08-28-12
02-15-17 10:27 PM - Post#221989    
    In response to Go Green

Good stuff thanks.

I'm still urinated about hoops because while Cormier probably had a ceiling as you say, I don't think he'd hit that ceiling yet, and he also had a floor well above where we are. And the Cormier ceiling might've been artificially higher these next 2-3 years with the coup of getting Evan here. And the only type of coach that would have a higher ceiling than Cormier (star power name like Amaker) ain't coming to Hanover.

Glad Women's Rugby is killing it.

I agree about football--this year was an aberration. I really hope so because I like Coach T.

In Koclanes defense, Teevens was 0-10 in year 4 of his current tenure, correct?


 
Go Green 
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02-16-17 07:45 AM - Post#222011    
    In response to hoopla

  • hoopla Said:


Glad Women's Rugby is killing it.



They *should* be killing it given the resources and facilities they have. As I said, you can probably make a case that the new coach is underachieving by being eliminated in the first round of the NCAAs in two years. But two for two in Ivy titles ain't awful...

  • hoopla Said:


In Koclanes defense, Teevens was 0-10 in year 4 of his current tenure, correct?



He was, but the similarities pretty much end there. Teevens had a track record of winning Ivy titles and also extensive coaching experience at the FBS and/or BCS level. Even if he hadn't, he had the good sense to have his worst season at a time when there was no athletic department leadership and the economy was tanking.

Can't say the same for Koclanes on either count.

More importantly, after the 0-10 season, Teevens sent a letter to the Dartmouth football faithful accepting full responsibility for the debacle, that he was embarrassed beyond belief that it happened, and vowing to make changes to ensure that it never happened again.

Koclanes' quotes in the Valley News article sure made it sound like she believed that middle-of-the-pack was the best we could hope for in women's basketball.

So....






 
IvyHoopsFan01 
Freshman
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02-16-17 01:12 PM - Post#222024    
    In response to Go Green

GoGreen has provided an insightful overview on the state of Dartmouth athletics. While I believe Harry Sheehy does warrant at least one more year as the AD, I would add a two data points to include in a review of his relative success. First, in terms of comparing Harry Sheehy’s tenure as the current athletic director over the past 6 years, Dartmouth has experienced some decline relative to the other Ivy school’s sports programs. During Sheehy’s tenure, Dartmouth has only finished 7th out of the 8 Ivy League schools in number of Ivy championship titles (only ahead of Brown). He has averaged less than 2 Ivy championship titles per annum for the 35 Ivy sports (18 mens and 17 women’s sports team championships), which is less than the two prior Dartmouth ADs. Josie Harper averaged 3 Ivy titles for her 7 years as AD and Richard Jaeger averaged 4 Ivy titles during his 11 years as AD. Second, the two Ivy titles in women’s rugby should take into account that there are only three Ivy schools that have committed the resources to make women’s rugby as a varsity sport (Dartmouth, Harvard and Brown). The other 5 Ivy school elect to maintain women’s rugby as a club sport with very limited support provided to their club teams. Thus, Dartmouth effectively only has to compete with Harvard and Brown for an Ivy title in this sport. This is the reason rugby is not included on the Ivy League Sports website that tracks Ivy championships by sport.

 
Go Green 
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02-16-17 01:57 PM - Post#222028    
    In response to IvyHoopsFan01

  • IvyHoopsFan01 Said:
Thus, Dartmouth effectively only has to compete with Harvard and Brown for an Ivy title in this sport. This is the reason rugby is not included on the Ivy League Sports website that tracks Ivy championships by sport.



The same argument could pretty much be said for the domination of women's athletics that Dartmouth enjoyed in the early days of Ivy competition. As I said, we took women's sports seriously early on. The only school that did likewise (from what I've been told) was Harvard.

It could very well be that 20 years from now, all 8 Ivy teams are pouring resources into women's rugby programs the way Dartmouth (and H and B) are today. We will see.

And we certainly shouldn't have to apologize that we're one of the few that take women's rugby seriously. It's a great game and I like watching it a heck of a lot more than some of the pther Ivy sports.

 
Go Green 
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02-16-17 02:10 PM - Post#222029    
    In response to IvyHoopsFan01

  • IvyHoopsFan01 Said:
First, in terms of comparing Harry Sheehy’s tenure as the current athletic director over the past 6 years, Dartmouth has experienced some decline relative to the other Ivy school’s sports programs. During Sheehy’s tenure, Dartmouth has only finished 7th out of the 8 Ivy League schools in number of Ivy championship titles (only ahead of Brown). He has averaged less than 2 Ivy championship titles per annum for the 35 Ivy sports (18 mens and 17 women’s sports team championships), which is less than the two prior Dartmouth ADs. Josie Harper averaged 3 Ivy titles for her 7 years as AD and Richard Jaeger averaged 4 Ivy titles during his 11 years as AD. .



This type of debate comes up every now and then on the Voy Board.

My belief is that comparing total titles is a very imperfect measure of athletic success because it doesn't differentiate between teams finishing a game behind in second place and basement teams that failed to win a game in Ivy competition.

Just to give one example, women's hockey went to the Frozen Four a few times even though they didn't win the Ivy/ECAC title in all of those seasons.

I don't have an answer. But just wanted to point out the shortcomings of counting just titles and nothing else to compare the strength of an athletic program.

 
IvyHoopsFan01 
Freshman
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Reg: 10-28-14
02-16-17 04:35 PM - Post#222035    
    In response to Go Green

GG, your point is well taken that titles should not be the sole measuring stick for the state of an athletic program. Yet, an analysis of the number of titles over an extensive period of time does seem to be a relatively important factor to consider as part of an overall evaluation of an athletic program. For example, if you were to analyze the past 5 years in aggregate, the Ivy teams have earned a total of 188 championship titles, including 13 ties, with the following yearly school averages: Princeton 10.8 titles, Harvard 10.4 titles, Cornell 4.8 titles, Columbia 3.2 titles, Yale 3.0 titles, Penn 2.8 titles, Dartmouth 1.6 titles and Brown 1.0 titles. The average yearly number of titles per Ivy school is 4.7 titles with Dartmouth achieving only 33% of the Ivy average. Given the total number of championships titles, I do feel it is a relevant benchmark metric, especially if you are lagging so well below the league averages. While HYP may have financial advantages, Dartmouth does seem to be falling behind Cornell, Columbia and Penn in this period.

 
Go Green 
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02-16-17 05:39 PM - Post#222036    
    In response to IvyHoopsFan01


Your mileage may vary, but I personally don't care if Columbia wins Ivy titles in archery and fencing.

I do care about beating them in basketball though. Hopefully that happens this weekend!

 
IvyHoopsFan01 
Freshman
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02-16-17 07:04 PM - Post#222039    
    In response to Go Green

Fair enough. After all, this is a message board for Ivy hoops.

 
hoopla 
Masters Student
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02-16-17 09:41 PM - Post#222046    
    In response to Go Green

What are the key sports that carry the most weight in determining the success of an athletic department?

Football yes, basketball yes, hockey yes... what else? Lax?

I'm interested in the hierarchy of what matters and why. Maybe not a discussion for the hoops board.

 
Go Green 
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02-17-17 08:21 AM - Post#222059    
    In response to hoopla

  • hoopla Said:
What are the key sports that carry the most weight in determining the success of an athletic department?




The answers will vary from region to region, school to school, and fan to fan.

Anyone who cares about my humble opinion:

Football
Hoops
Baseball/Softball
Hockey
Soccer
Lacrosse
Rugby
Track/Cross Country
Field Hockey
Tennis
Crew
Everything else

 
Go Green 
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02-17-17 09:22 AM - Post#222061    
    In response to Go Green


Also worth noting in this conversation was that Columbia's prior Athletic Director was run out of New York largely because the football team had become a national punch line.

She kept on trying to highlight other Columbia teams that were doing well, and that was certainly true. But the Lion faithful just didn't want to hear it when the football team was losing by 40 points every week.

 
Go Green 
Junior
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Reg: 04-22-10
Re: Yikes
02-19-17 09:36 AM - Post#222438    
    In response to Go Green

  • Go Green Said:
  • hoopla Said:
Go Green, do you think men or women will finish with better record overall and ivy?



Given that the only two home games the women have left on the schedule are Penn and Princeton, and given that they lost first game to them each by 30 points, it is very difficult seeing the women win another game. Although I certainly hope they do.

So for the better Ivy record, the men seem like a safer bet.

I'd also venture that the men will end up with more wins overall. They are only one behind the women (unfortunately) and even the projections think that we will pick up two more. Hopefully it will be more than that.



Women get swept again.

Virtually certain that the men will have more Ivy victories, and very likely more victories overall.


 
dperry 
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dperry
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Reg: 11-24-04
Re: Yikes
02-24-17 11:54 PM - Post#223461    
    In response to Go Green

Nice thrilling win over Brown to put a dent in the Bears' stretch run, at least.

The really scary thing is that Koclanes has now been around three years, so she has primary responsibility for the sophs and full responsibility for the frosh, and only one person out of those two classes is making any significant contribution this season (Quinones). Unless some of the others show great improvement next year, or recruiting picks up real quick, things are going to fall off the cliff in 2018 without Szabo, and hit the bottom of the Challenger Deep when the juniors go.

It might have been a bit premature to let Wielgus go, given that Kathy Delaney-Smith, who has been a good coach for Harvard forever, took a couple of years to adjust to the new order in the league, but seems to be recovering now (albeit not as much as we thought they had after the non-conference season.) While Dartmouth obviously has disadvantages relative to Harvard, it's hard to see how Wielgus would have done worse.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
Go Green 
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03-06-17 10:04 AM - Post#225214    
    In response to hoopla

  • hoopla Said:

Go Green I'd love your take on state of Dartmouth Athletics.



The Valley News doesn't mince words (again). They say we suck this year.

http://www.vnews.com/GreenSceneMain-843343 8

 
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