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Username Post: Boudreaux Player Of The Week        (Topic#19970)
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 261

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
02-21-17 09:28 PM - Post#222952    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:
A player *can* win POY from a bad team, but he has to be transcendent. Alex Barnett in 2009 was taking 33% of Dartmouth's shots and was efficient at it. Would have been impossible to say no. And that's what you have to do if you want it on a bad team.



Barnett was also a senior.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4133

Reg: 11-22-04
02-21-17 09:33 PM - Post#222953    
    In response to hoops123

I don't think the Ivy POY has come from a bottom 4 or even sub .500 team since 1981. Pretty sure the Barnett Dartmouth team went .500 and finished 4th.

So there isn't any recent precedent that I see. Personally, I think the stats tend to lie in regard to players on weak teams. Boudreaux gets the numbers because nobody else is there to do it. That shouldn't be a disadvantage, but it also shouldn't be an advantage that he gets to score all Dartmouth's points while Princeton and Yale's guys are sharing the burden equally.

While I'm always skeptical of stats on bad teams, and I generally lean toward voting for a player on a winning team, I do think it is theoretically possible for the best player to be on a bad team. So I would never say never. If ever there was a year for it to happen, it is probably this year, as no upper class men really stick out statistically on the top teams. Nonetheless, I'd pick Weisz, I'd pick Cook if it isn't Weisz, and I think the coaches will go with Spieth if they go with a lower division statistical beast. While the counting stats are still king, the fact that Boudreaux hasn't had a particularly good year in terms of efficiency hurts, too.

 
Mike Porter 
Postdoc
Posts: 2135
Mike Porter
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
02-22-17 12:01 AM - Post#222960    
    In response to SomeGuy

Was it Craig Austin (was that his name?) from Columbia that won POY one year in late 90s early 00s? Can't remember what that team did in league though.

 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 74

Age: 47
Reg: 12-14-16
02-22-17 12:53 AM - Post#222963    
    In response to SomeGuy

Well, do remember Boudreaux is double and at times triple teamed on nearly every possession (because he is the main guy on Dartmouth's team) and he still puts up great numbers anyway. And he plays 33 mins a game. He's tough. Pretty sure any player in any league that's double/triple teamed each game will wind up with lower efficiency numbers. I think (you all will correct me if I'm wrong) Boudreaux and Brodeur are the only guys consistently double and triple teamed in the league.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4133

Reg: 11-22-04
02-22-17 07:12 AM - Post#222969    
    In response to Mike Porter

Yes, Austin played at Columbia and won POY as a junior on a 4th place .500 team. They were bad his senior year (and he didn't win that year -- not sure he even made first team).

 
Cooper 
Sophomore
Posts: 126

Reg: 11-22-04
02-22-17 09:28 AM - Post#222978    
    In response to SomeGuy

Deserving or not is disputable. Indisputable is the fact that Boudreaux is not going to win the POY. It's simply not going to happen.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 808

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
02-22-17 11:00 AM - Post#222985    
    In response to hoops123

Princeton double teams opposing centers and Columbia's zone collapses inside. Zena used to get double teamed all the time, but Harvard doesn't play through him much this year.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4133

Reg: 11-22-04
02-22-17 07:50 PM - Post#223057    
    In response to Cooper

It's far from an impossibility. The coaches just get one vote, so it's pretty easy to see a split where Weisz and Cook split the "winning team" vote and somebody else sneaks in. More likely to be Spieth than Boudreaux, but stranger things have happened.

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4619

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-22-17 08:02 PM - Post#223059    
    In response to SomeGuy

I agree the Princeton guys will split the vote to some extent. I also believe they will get all of the votes.

 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 74

Age: 47
Reg: 12-14-16
02-27-17 02:36 PM - Post#223878    
    In response to mrjames

Hi guys:
Monday morning and way too much coffee so here goes (and I admit this is a biased Dartmouth Fan's plug for Boudreaux for 1st Team All Ivy and POY). I felt I had to speak up after reading Mike Tony's write up this morning (fantastic piece Mike!) and I have a response to this quote from his piece:

"It’s disappointing that double-double-dependable Evan Boudreaux is getting lost in the All-Ivy first-team conversation, one that is focusing on Princeton’s also very deserving standouts. Boudreaux ranks second in the league in scoring, first in rebounding and second in minutes played, and yet I feel like Ivy onlookers take him too easily for granted."

Boudreaux is HANDS DOWN a 1st Team All Ivy Pick. My opinion. So in posts from this earlier thread on POY, you guys have pretty much answered my questions. According to the responses, Boudreaux can't/won't win Player of the Year (despite having far better points per game and rebounds (especially in Ivy play) than any other players discussed) because he is on a team that doesn't win. So because Boudreaux didn't win the teammate lottery, he won't win POY according to the armchair pundits despite blowing away the league (non-conference and conference)in rebounds and currently in second place in the league in scoring non-conference(by .2 pts) and leading the league in conference scoring. NO IVY TEAM has been able to shut Boudreaux down all season. He is averaging nearly a double double in conference play. In my mind, he's the best player in the league in scoring and rebounding. So the POY criteria isn't an MVP award, correct? It's a subjective best player on a winning team (whose coach recruited better than our fired coach) award that is oriented towards upper classman? So hypothetically, and I'm NOT comparing Lebron James to Boudreaux, if sophomore Lebron James played for Dartmouth (and they came in 8th place) and he won the scoring and rebounding title for the Ivy League, the powers that be would still award POY to an "athlete" on a winning team that doesn't compare to James and one that didn't get the numbers James got. This makes no sense to me, unless the award isn't an MVP award. Effectively, posters are saying individual stats aren't the main criteria in voting for POY and First Team All Ivy, winning games is, and the players that help their teams win get POY and First Team All Ivy and the top stats leaders aren't in the running. I think Boudreaux has to be considered one of the best players in the league this year, certainly the best in scoring and rebounding. If he wasn't, other teams would be able to stop him and he wouldn't have 14 double/doubles this season (8 in Ivy Play) and he wouldn't have scored in double figures in every Ivy Game and 24 of 25 regular season games. And for those that default saying Boudreaux gets these numbers because hes the only player on Dartmouth's team that's any good, then why didn't YOUR coach and other coaches figure out a way to stop him? They can't because he's the best player in the league (my opinion). I concede his %'s aren't as good as they were last year, but most every game he's been double/triple teamed and he's playing 33+ minutes per game. And for those with short memories, he averaged a double double in league play last year as a Freshman. I don't see any freshmen doing that this year. I maintain that Boudreaux has EARNED POY consideration (yes even though he is a sophomore (which is another seemingly ridiculous criteria: let's give it to an upper classman), and in my mind, he is the best player in the league and should be First Team All Ivy and I think he is the Player Of Year!
Signed,
Biased Dartmouth Fan

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4619

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-27-17 02:45 PM - Post#223882    
    In response to hoops123

Evan Boudreaux should be First Team All-Ivy, assuming that it's an offense-focused, league-play focused award. It wouldn't be "hands down" for me, but I'd probably end up there.

I don't think the coaches see it the same way. That's all I was pointing out. I'm confident that he will not be Ivy POY, and I think he's behind four players to start for 1st Team All-Ivy (Weisz, Cook, Stephens and Spieth - who has the "senior" tag going for him to overcome the bad team issue).

At the end of the day, who cares what the awards say. You have a top five offensive talent in the league coming back for two more years. Be happy about that!!!

 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 74

Age: 47
Reg: 12-14-16
02-27-17 02:47 PM - Post#223883    
    In response to mrjames

You have no idea how happy I was to hear he's coming back.

 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 981

Reg: 02-15-15
02-27-17 06:45 PM - Post#223922    
    In response to hoops123

He will be POY before its over. quite possibly more than once.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 425

Age: 45
Reg: 05-19-16
02-27-17 07:13 PM - Post#223926    
    In response to PennFan10

Evan is the one player that each coach in the Ivy would want on their team, easily 1st team all Ivy.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4133

Reg: 11-22-04
02-27-17 09:45 PM - Post#223947    
    In response to hoops123

It's more complicated than just who has the counting stats though. Boudreaux may not have won the teammate lottery. But suppose he did. Is he top two (or even top five) in either category if he is playing for Princeton? His efficiency would hopefully be up in that scenario, but he'd also be playing in an offense that evenly distributes the ball among four (and at times, five) options. My guess is that he wouldn't be their leading scorer this year.

Similarly, Steven Cook (or Weisz, or even Stephens or Cannady) would probably all be Dartmouth's focal point on offense if you trade them for Boudreaux, and they'd have a lot more counting stats.

So I think the flaw in your argument is the assumption that Boudreaux's counting stats tell you everything. They don't. Of course, the argument goes the other way too -- we don't know what really happens if the roles reverse. But my theory is that, if Boudreaux is really the best player in the league overall, then Dartmouth wouldn't have the record they have. So that's why I default to the top players on the best teams.

Of course, Dartmouth is still alive with a sweep, so maybe Boudreaux lifts his team to the top four anyway.



 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 261

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
02-27-17 10:08 PM - Post#223955    
    In response to SomeGuy

  • SomeGuy Said:


So I think the flaw in your argument is the assumption that Boudreaux's counting stats tell you everything. They don't.






How many guys have led the league in scoring (he's a hair behind in second place) and rebounding (huge lead)?

However many exist, I'm guessing pretty much all of them got first-team All Ivy, and quite a few got POY.


 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4133

Reg: 11-22-04
02-27-17 11:40 PM - Post#223967    
    In response to Go Green

Hasn't happened in recent memory. But last year, none of the top 3 scorers in the league made first team, nor did any of the top 4 rebounders. If the team doesn't win, it's going to be nearly impossible to win POY, and tough to make 1st team.

 
hoopla 
Masters Student
Posts: 484

Age: 43
Reg: 08-28-12
02-28-17 07:20 AM - Post#223977    
    In response to SomeGuy

If Evan doesn't make first team, they should stop doing these awards. According to both stats and the eye test, Evan is easily 1st team and in my opinion the MVP in the IL. If he is not considered POY than that tells me POY does not equate to MVP.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4133

Reg: 11-22-04
02-28-17 07:41 AM - Post#223979    
    In response to hoopla

To me, MVP actually goes the other way -- I would define that as having even more of a good team component. I always view MVP as most valuable to winning. A guy who scores 20 in a losing effort every night isn't ultimately helping his team win, and unless he is Andre Dawson, he shouldn't be MVP (for the record, I don't think Dawson should have won that year, either).

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 261

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
02-28-17 08:46 AM - Post#223981    
    In response to SomeGuy

  • SomeGuy Said:
Hasn't happened in recent memory. But last year, none of the top 3 scorers in the league made first team, nor did any of the top 4 rebounders.



You're correct that leading a category doesn't give you a lock onto postseason honors. Dartmouth's Ian McGinnis led the NATION in rebounding one year, and didn't even get HM all-ivy.

That being said, leading the league in two major categories has got to count for something. I'm guessing Bill Bradley did it. I could probably guess a few others who either did it or came close. And the guys I'm thinking of are among the best the league has ever seen.

It's a shame that the team hasn't won more. But if Boudreaux ends up leading the league in both scoring and rebounding, I'd be very surprised if he wasn't on the first team--even if Dartmouth drops the last two.

We will see how next weekend goes!

 
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