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Username Post: Boudreaux Player Of The Week        (Topic#19970)
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4221

Reg: 11-22-04
02-28-17 07:56 AM - Post#223984    
    In response to Go Green

Yes, I suspect he gets 1st team this year. It's POY that I think is really unlikely. 1st team is tough for a soph on a bad team, but given the fact that the best teams either rely on freshmen or have a team concept that keeps the counting stats low, I think he gets there. I won't be surprised or outraged if he doesn't, but I think he does.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 426

Age: 45
Reg: 05-19-16
02-28-17 08:25 AM - Post#223986    
    In response to Go Green

I really hope Evan gets first team all ivy honors. He's more than earned that at the minimum. It would be a shame if in the next two years Dartmouth's record doesn't improve and Evan gets shut out of honors because he's on a losing team.

He's easily the league's top players and to get overlooked because of the teams record is a real risk. It's already hard enough to get talent to Hanover, getting snubbed won't help that cause. We really need this after a year where we've clearly taken a step backward. If Barry couldn't get a start this year under this coach it's likely Evan will be the last freshman ROY. That won't help get guys to Hanover. We need this award for Evan. We made him the focal point of everything we did, and if he can't get that honor at least, then why come to Dartmouth besides the incredible education if your a stud freshman?
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4221

Reg: 11-22-04
02-28-17 08:44 AM - Post#223988    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

While I've been very critical of the decision to fire Cormier and hire McLaughlin, I think you need to give the new coach a chance to bring in his own recruits. I don't entirely understand what he is trying to do differently scheme wise from the prior staff, but obviously he views how some guys (Cameron Smith and Johnson in particular) fit very differently. So he clearly has his stuff that he wants to run, and some of the guys don't fit. With the freshmen, these are still basically Cormier's recruits. So how they got used may turn out to be different from how guys McLaughlin has recruited all along end up getting used. Also, Boudreaux sucks up possessions. When he graduates, there will clearly be a moment to sell guys on the idea of coming in to be the focal point, and you will have precedent that Dartmouth will make a star kid the focal point in a way that no other school will.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 261

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
Boudreaux Player Of The Week
02-28-17 10:41 AM - Post#224007    
    In response to Go Green

  • Go Green Said:
  • SomeGuy Said:


So I think the flaw in your argument is the assumption that Boudreaux's counting stats tell you everything. They don't.






How many guys have led the league in scoring (he's a hair behind in second place) and rebounding (huge lead)?






Anyone who cares, I looked it up guys who led the league in both scoring and rebounding in the same year. According to our media guide the Ivy didn't start keeping rebounding as an official stat among league leaders until the early 1960s. Whether or not guys from the 1950s or earlier did it is anyone's guess.

But Bradley did it. The late 1960s rebounding leaders are not listed for whatever reason, but I'd bet money McMillan did it as well.

It hasn't happened since.

Edited by Go Green on 02-28-17 10:51 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
EasyGreen1 
Freshman
Posts: 11

Age: 40
Reg: 12-08-16
Boudreaux Player Of The Week
02-28-17 11:32 AM - Post#224012    
    In response to SomeGuy

...

Edited by EasyGreen1 on 02-28-17 11:45 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 426

Age: 45
Reg: 05-19-16
02-28-17 03:57 PM - Post#224040    
    In response to SomeGuy

  • SomeGuy Said:
While I've been very critical of the decision to fire Cormier and hire McLaughlin, I think you need to give the new coach a chance to bring in his own recruits. I don't entirely understand what he is trying to do differently scheme wise from the prior staff, but obviously he views how some guys (Cameron Smith and Johnson in particular) fit very differently. So he clearly has his stuff that he wants to run, and some of the guys don't fit. With the freshmen, these are still basically Cormier's recruits. So how they got used may turn out to be different from how guys McLaughlin has recruited all along end up getting used. Also, Boudreaux sucks up possessions. When he graduates, there will clearly be a moment to sell guys on the idea of coming in to be the focal point, and you will have precedent that Dartmouth will make a star kid the focal point in a way that no other school will.



I think you might be right. I see it all across college basketball. Hire a new coach fire all the old staff build a program in your image. Unfortunately, the players from the old coach's recruitment are just caught in the middle i.e. Cameron Smith. Some of the freshman have done ok under McLaughlin but other I bet have been sorely disappointed in the outcome. My biggest fear was that Evan would leave. But that doesn't seem to be the case, but you never know. This season hasn't met anyone's expectations I'm sure. Hopefully next season will be better. I just hope given your theory we don't lose guys.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3140

Reg: 02-04-06
02-28-17 06:49 PM - Post#224068    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

SG: "I don't entirely understand what he is trying to do differently scheme wise from the prior staff,..."

And that's the issue. Nobody can see any systematic difference in style of play from the previous regime that would obsolete the skill set of any returning player. What is their identity supposed to be other than a generic team striving for efficiency on both ends? When Earl took over Cornell, right or wrong you could see a change in their style of play (I obviously think very right, but YMMV). You can't even tell if this is defense-first or offense-first coaching (say, Huggins vs. Beilein for what that means).

I have no problem with system coaches, if they can communicate, teach, and then recruit to fit. Roy Williams has a system that he sticks to. Ed Cooley has a system and style. I get more worried when successful coaches seem to abandon their philosophy--Shaka Smart at Texas has me worried, for example.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4221

Reg: 11-22-04
02-28-17 06:56 PM - Post#224069    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Just to speculate dangerously for a moment, I've always wondered just how much player opinions led to the firing of Cormier and hiring of McLaughlin. If the players were heavily involved in pushing for the ouster, and the subsequent hire, they may be more likely to stay.

 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 74

Age: 47
Reg: 12-14-16
Re: Boudreaux Player Of The Week
03-01-17 02:20 PM - Post#224144    
    In response to Go Green

So to your point Go Green, since no one has apparently led the league in both scoring and rebounding since the 60's or early 70's, if Boudreaux were to accomplish this rare and somewhat amazing feat (we'll know after this weekend), the powers that be apparently will not elect Boudreaux POY because his team did not perform well enough? I think that is a travesty if the leader of a league in points, rebounds, and double doubles does not get POY. if this happens, it makes the Ivy POY a subjective, obviously not stats based award counter to every other D1 league in College Basketball (every POY for every Division 1 program that I can find is stats based). It appears to be a popularity contest for "best" player on a winning team, not actually the league's top player. It's absolutely not his fault his team isn't winning. He's the most consistent high level player in the Ivy League. My two cents.
Signed,
Biased Dartmouth Fan (hey, at least we can root for Boudreaux to get POY)

 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3289

Reg: 11-23-04
03-01-17 02:34 PM - Post#224146    
    In response to hoops123

POY, ROY, All League teams, etc. are all subjective. It's a vote of the coaches and I suspect each has his own view on who's deserving, and why.

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4839

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Boudreaux Player Of The Week
03-01-17 03:02 PM - Post#224149    
    In response to hoops123

To be fair, Evan may have the counting stats, but there are plenty of stats-based arguments for why he is NOT POY. It would be inaccurate to say that he is clearly the POY based on stats.

 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 74

Age: 47
Reg: 12-14-16
Re: Boudreaux Player Of The Week
03-01-17 03:28 PM - Post#224152    
    In response to mrjames

How about most consistent, dominant, unstoppable player in the league then? No team has stopped him....

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4839

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
03-01-17 03:45 PM - Post#224154    
    In response to hoops123

He's 21st in Win Shares. 8th in Hands on Buckets. 9th in PER. 6th in Floor Impact Counter. 35th in Points Per Shot. 54th in Pure Points Rating. He's 27th in fewest % of buckets assisted at the rim and 9th on percent of made jumpers that were assisted.

Now, he's 1st in Usage Rate. He's second in minutes. And that is obviously pushing up his points per game. He's 3rd in Total Rebounding Rate, but obviously first because he plays more minutes than those ahead of him.

In the era of advanced stats that can adjust for pace/minutes/efficiency, it's not enough to say points per game and rebounds per game. That and $2.75 will get you a ride on the NYC subway.

I think he'll get a long look for 1st Team, but he's not close to the POY conversation.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 261

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
03-01-17 03:58 PM - Post#224157    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:
In the era of advanced stats that can adjust for pace/minutes/efficiency, it's not enough to say points per game and rebounds per game. That and $2.75 will get you a ride on the NYC subway.



Not necessarily saying you're wrong.

But when the only other guys to do it in 50 years were Bradley and McMillan....

 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 74

Age: 47
Reg: 12-14-16
03-01-17 04:30 PM - Post#224164    
    In response to Go Green

Agree with Go Green. First time in over 50 years. So we toss out his total stats 19.3 ppg LEADING THE LEAGUE IN CONFERENCE PLAY, 9.9 rebs/game LEADING THE LEAGUE IN CONFERENCE PLAY (nearly a double double in conference play), and 8 league double doubles and he's "not close" in POY discussions because others are more efficient? So who do you think should be POY?

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4839

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
03-01-17 04:54 PM - Post#224170    
    In response to hoops123

One of the three Princeton players (Cook, Stephens, Weisz) will be POY.

For me, POY is Myles Stephens, though that's because I think it should be an offensive and defensive award.

 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 74

Age: 47
Reg: 12-14-16
03-01-17 05:08 PM - Post#224176    
    In response to mrjames

Because they are on a winning team? Their individual stats are not that impressive for your top 3. If any of these players were on another mediocre team with these same stats they would not be in the POY conversation.

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4839

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
03-01-17 05:41 PM - Post#224183    
    In response to hoops123

Myles Stephens has an ORAT of 107 on 22-23% usage while being a DPOY candidate. Cook is one of the most efficient players in the league at his usage rate and leads the league in win shares.

Weisz is probably the only one that doesn't have a solid statistical backing for his candidacy, but knowing how coaches view him, he's got a great chance to win it.

Winning the league helps one's cause but it isn't (and shouldn't be) everything. Not finishing near to or dead last, though, is a factor.

Evan is a really good, young player, but he's not a plus defender and he's not going to get credit for racking up counting stats on a bad team. Especially when other elite players in this league are playing fewer minutes or posting lower usage rates, because those teams have the luxury of doing so. It's tougher to be a key contributor on teams with better talent so players that stand out on those teams should and do get more credit than those that might stand out more on a relative basis on a bad team.

 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 74

Age: 47
Reg: 12-14-16
03-01-17 05:54 PM - Post#224185    
    In response to mrjames

Excellent points and a fair assessment. Thanks for the post!

 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 74

Age: 47
Reg: 12-14-16
03-01-17 05:58 PM - Post#224187    
    In response to mrjames

One last point: I do think Boudreaux should get credit for counting stats on a poor team, just as he gets "credit" for his efficiency numbers, since he is the focal point of every team's defense(as evidenced by their double and triple teaming him nearly every game.)

 
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