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Username Post: tie breaker rules        (Topic#19976)
internetter 
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02-21-17 05:01 PM - Post#222899    

They've been announced. Sorry I can't copy them; website has it all.
west coast fan


 
internetter 
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Loc: Los Angeles
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02-21-17 05:16 PM - Post#222900    
    In response to internetter

Ivy League Basketball Tournaments Tiebreakers
Ivy League Basketball Tournaments Tiebreakers
The following are the tiebreakers that will be used to break up any ties for seeding or tournament berths.

I. In the case of a two‐way tie between teams in the final standings, the following process will be used until all ties are broken and the seeding process is completed (ties will be broken in rank order beginning with the highest seed):

Head‐to‐head competition ‐ The higher seed will go to the team that has won the most League contests played against the other team involved in the tie.
If a tie still exists, the tie will be broken by comparing each team’s record against the highest seed outside of the tie and continuing through the lowest seed, if necessary.
If a tie still exists, an average of the most recent ratings indices identified in advance by the coaches (Men: Sagarin, Ken Pom, BPI and NCAA RPI; Women: Sagarin, RPIratings.com and NCAA RPI) will be utilized to determine the higher seed.
If a tie still persists, a draw will be conducted by the Executive Director

II. In the case of a multiple‐team tie (more than two teams tied for the same spot), the following process will be used: Note: Once a highest seed (amongst the tied teams) is determined, the tie between the remaining seeds shall be determined on the basis of head-to-head competition.

Records between the tied teams – The higher seed will go to the team that has won the most League contests against the other teams tied at that spot.
If a tie still exists, the tie will be broken by comparing each team’s record against the highest seed outside of the tie and continuing through the lowest seed, if necessary.
If a tie still exists, an average of the most recent ratings indices identified in advance by the coaches (Men: Sagarin, Ken Pom, BPI and NCAA RPI; Women: Sagarin, RPIratings.com and NCAA RPI) will be utilized to determine the higher seed.
If a tie still persists, a draw will be conducted by the Executive Director





west coast fan


 
rbg 
Junior
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Reg: 10-20-14
02-21-17 06:06 PM - Post#222904    
    In response to internetter

If I read that correctly, Columbia would hold the second tiebreaker with Penn since the Lions have one win against the present #2 team (Harvard) and the Quakers have one win against the #3 team (Yale).

 
penn nation 
Professor
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tie breaker rules
02-21-17 06:16 PM - Post#222906    
    In response to rbg

Assuming Dartmouth or Cornell do not start going on a win streak and make it a 3 way or 4 way tie at the end, that is.

  • rbg Said:
If I read that correctly, Columbia would hold the second tiebreaker with Penn since the Lions have one win against the present #2 team (Harvard) and the Quakers have one win against the #3 team (Yale).



Right, assuming that Penn loses to Columbia (otherwise it wins the first tiebreaker).

If Penn loses to Columbia, Columbia loses to Princeton and the teams are otherwise all square leading up to the last game, the Penn-Harvard and Columbia-Yale games at the end will be insane. If both Penn and Columbia win their final games, as I read it that means we go to the composite rankings to break the tie and Penn seems quite likely to win that one.


Edited by penn nation on 02-21-17 06:24 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
cc66 
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Reg: 10-09-09
02-21-17 06:29 PM - Post#222909    
    In response to penn nation

Then despite all the cognitive dissonance it arouses, we have no choice but to root for Harvard.

 
penn nation 
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02-21-17 06:32 PM - Post#222912    
    In response to cc66

To deprive the Tigers of an undefeated season--most certainly.



  • cc66 Said:
Then despite all the cognitive dissonance it arouses, we have no choice but to root for Harvard.




 
cc66 
PhD Student
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Reg: 10-09-09
02-21-17 06:39 PM - Post#222913    
    In response to penn nation

That, and to ensure that the team we beat ranks higher than the team that Penn might beat.

 
mrjames 
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tie breaker rules
02-21-17 06:54 PM - Post#222918    
    In response to cc66

Penn will win the tiebreaker unless Columbia beats Princeton.

The vast, vast majority of paths for Penn to tie or beat Columbia involve either winning at Columbia (securing the H2H tiebreak) or beating Harvard at home (drawing on tiebreaks 1 & 2 and pushing this to ratings, where it will win easily).

Edited by mrjames on 02-21-17 07:21 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
penn nation 
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02-21-17 06:59 PM - Post#222920    
    In response to cc66

That, and all of the kings horses and men, aint gonna be enough to have you vault over Penn in the composite ratings.

 
penn nation 
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Reg: 12-02-04
02-21-17 07:00 PM - Post#222921    
    In response to mrjames

Nice sentence fragment. What did you mean to say in the part that completes the sentence?

  • mrjames Said:


The vast, vast majority of paths for Penn to tie or beat Columbia without either winning at Columbia (securing the H2H tiebreak) or beating Harvard at home (drawing on tiebreaks 1 & 2 and pushing this to ratings, where it will win easily).




 
cc66 
PhD Student
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Reg: 10-09-09
02-21-17 07:01 PM - Post#222922    
    In response to mrjames

Why? If we beat Harvard, and they beat Yale, isn't our victory over Harvard against a higher ranked team than Penn's over Yale.

Sorry to be dense about this, but the tie-break rules seem unnecessarily complex and confusing.

 
mrjames 
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02-21-17 07:44 PM - Post#222928    
    In response to cc66

No problem, and I should be precise about the numbers, because the answer isn't 0%.

For Columbia's win over Harvard to be the difference, Columbia would need to beat Penn, yet underperform the Quakers by a game in the other three games WITHOUT Penn beating Harvard. And it would need to do so without a 3rd team matching Columbia and Penn, at which point things get really weird.

Those specific paths (essentially including Penn winning at Cornell and vs Dartmouth, losing at Columbia and home to Harvard and having Columbia lose to Princeton and exactly one of Brown or Yale) only happen in about 5% of sims. And while it's possible they could tie on 5 wins without anyone joining them, that happens in just 0.4% of sims. Thus, if Penn loses to Cornell on Friday night, it would clinch the tiebreaker with Columbia if it becomes necessary, because catching Columbia would require either beating the Lions or Harvard. (Again, all of this assuming Columbia doesn't beat Princeton - if it does, it would then just need to beat Penn to secure the tiebreak).

Even with 4 games left, there are still a ton of possible outcomes, that's why, to simplify, for two-way ties between these two teams basically it's easiest to think of Columbia needing a sweep this weekend to nab the tiebreak or a win over Penn and a very specific (and unlikely) set of Penn outcomes.


 
roarlionroar 
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02-21-17 08:30 PM - Post#222934    
    In response to mrjames

That harvard-Yale game is huge.

 
mrjames 
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02-21-17 08:41 PM - Post#222936    
    In response to roarlionroar

Could swing things a bit, but the scenario under which you lose the tiebreak at 6-8 with Penn because Harvard/Yale flipped is slim (you'd have to beat Brown and lose to Princeton /Yale and Penn would have to beat Cornell and Dartmouth and lose to Harvard and Harvard would have to lose its spot to Yale despite beating Penn). That's the string of stuff that would have to happen to make that game meaningful for a 6-8 tie...

 
roarlionroar 
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Age: 20
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02-21-17 08:49 PM - Post#222941    
    In response to mrjames

What if Penn beats Cornell/Dartmouth and Columbia beats Penn/Brown and Harvard and Yale end up tied? Is that the scenario in which it goes to the third tie break?

 
penn nation 
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Reg: 12-02-04
tie breaker rules
02-21-17 08:52 PM - Post#222942    
    In response to roarlionroar

Another scenario for the 3rd tiebreak is if Penn beats Harvard, Columbia beats Yale and Columbia beats Penn. Assuming no other teams tie Penn and Columbia, that is.

  • roarlionroar Said:
What if Penn beats Cornell/Dartmouth and Columbia beats Penn/Brown and Harvard and Yale end up tied? Is that the scenario in which it goes to the third tie break?




Edited by penn nation on 02-21-17 08:57 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
mrjames 
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02-21-17 08:58 PM - Post#222946    
    In response to penn nation

So far as I understand, they'd break Harvard/Yale tie first. Which would involve H2H (in this case, assume a push), then record vs Princeton (either Harv or a push). After that it would go to the ratings, which I believe Harvard leads now and probably would hang on to unless they got destroyed in their losses. It would be close, though...

 
mrjames 
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Re: tie breaker rules
02-21-17 09:02 PM - Post#222948    
    In response to penn nation

Unless Columbia beats Princeton, Penn beating Harvard would secure the tiebreak. They'd both be 0-2 vs PRIN, 1-1 vs Harvard and Yale at worst. Would go to ratings and Penn's gonna win there.

 
penn nation 
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Reg: 12-02-04
Re: tie breaker rules
02-21-17 09:07 PM - Post#222950    
    In response to mrjames

Yes, although we'd only get to that 3rd tiebreak if Columbia beats Yale along with Penn beating Harvard.

 
Bryan 
Sophomore
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Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
02-21-17 10:52 PM - Post#222956    
    In response to internetter

I realize it's unlikely to happen, but the third tiebreak procedure was very poorly chosen.The men's coaches chose 4 indices to consider, as copied below from the message from internetter.

"If a tie still exists, an average of the most recent ratings indices identified in advance by the coaches (Men: Sagarin, Ken Pom, BPI and NCAA RPI)

Why in the world would you pick 4 indices, which has some chance to give a 2-2 split and force a coin flip, when you can just as easily choose 3 or 5?







 
SomeGuy 
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Reg: 11-22-04
02-22-17 07:32 AM - Post#222971    
    In response to Bryan

It's a little unclear, but it does say an "average" of the indices. I assume that means an average national rank among the indices, which seems very unlikely to end in a tie. If I am correct, whether there is an odd or even number of inputs wouldn't make a difference.


 
TigerFan 
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Reg: 11-21-04
tie breaker rules
02-22-17 07:39 AM - Post#222972    
    In response to Bryan

Tie-break #3 is the average of the 4 ratings, Bryan, not which team is higher rated in the most of the 4 systems. I would image the odds of a tie there would be off the charts (Mike James?) As someone who is concerned about the NCAA tournament seeding of the Ivy representative, I like #3.

Edited by TigerFan on 02-22-17 07:40 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
mrjames 
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02-22-17 08:42 AM - Post#222974    
    In response to TigerFan

Correct. They're going to do an average of the rank, which would be very difficult to have end in a tie. And that's explicitly what the coaches wanted: drawing lots wasn't palatable so they wanted something that would essentially ensure we wouldn't end up there.

 
SRP 
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02-22-17 02:21 PM - Post#223023    
    In response to mrjames

Last tiebreaker should be head coaches' three-point shooting contest. Talk about fan and media interest!

 
TheLine 
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02-22-17 02:57 PM - Post#223027    
    In response to SRP

I heard it would be a game of HORSE. Avoid a tiebreak with Brown.

Actual scenarios will be clearer after the weekend. There are too many right now.


 
internetter 
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Reg: 11-21-04
02-26-17 11:25 PM - Post#223824    
    In response to TheLine

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/c ollege/...

This seems to be the word.
west coast fan


 
SRP 
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02-26-17 11:54 PM - Post#223826    
    In response to internetter

The delightful simplicity and manifest logic of this system shine forth.

 
Chet Forte 
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02-27-17 07:57 AM - Post#223831    
    In response to SRP

A one game play in on a neutral court would make the most sense.


 
Columbia Alum 
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02-27-17 09:31 AM - Post#223838    
    In response to Chet Forte

agree with you for a two-way tie but for 3-4 way ties becomes tricky and impractical.

 
section110 
Masters Student
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Loc: south jersey
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02-27-17 09:37 AM - Post#223839    
    In response to Columbia Alum

Flip a damn coin. It makes as much sense as the rest of this mess. I'm cheering for the fourth place team no matter what.

 
JadwinGeorge 
Sophomore
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02-27-17 10:20 AM - Post#223842    
    In response to section110

It is my understanding that the womens team's coaches agreed to a coin flip as the last tie-breaker, but the men would not.

 
TheLine 
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tie breaker rules
02-27-17 10:32 AM - Post#223845    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

If I'm understanding correctly overwhelmingly likely scenarios are:

- If Penn beats Harvard then Columbia needs to beat Yale. Root for Cornell over Yale and Brown over Cornell.

- If Penn loses to Harvard then win any one game this weekend.


 
penn nation 
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Re: tie breaker rules
02-27-17 10:48 AM - Post#223847    
    In response to TheLine

Root for Cornell, period. If we beat Harvard and Columbia beats Y, it may come down to where Cornell and Brown end up in the final standings. Penn wins the tiebreaker with Columbia in terms of the Cornell H-T-H but Columbia would win it the tiebreaker if Brown finishes ahead of Cornell.

If we lose to Harvard, we have to have beaten D the night before or in all probability we are eliminated. And even if we did beat D, Columbia would need to lose both games--Columbia would win the tiebreaker because they beat Harvard once this year.

  • TheLine Said:
If I'm understanding correctly overwhelmingly likely scenarios are:

- If Penn beats Harvard then Columbia needs to beat Yale. Root for Cornell over Yale and Brown over Cornell.

- If Penn loses to Harvard then win any one game this weekend.





Edited by penn nation on 02-27-17 10:51 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Tiger69 
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tie breaker rules
02-27-17 12:58 PM - Post#223862    
    In response to penn nation

Well, the stupid and annoying tourney has definitely aroused fan interest. I'll concede it that, although I never questioned that aspect. I wonder if dropping $10 bills from an airplane over the South Bronx would arouse the neighborhood?

OK, ignore what I just said in jest. Since the tourney was what the players, coaches and ADs wanted, we have it and it certainly has sparked tha also-rans in the later stage of the season.

But, since there is little immediate prospect for a second bid, can we tweak the tourney rules next year to give more recognition to the 14 game winner while still leaving the door open for a strong contender to take away the bid? I'm afraid that harvard now looks to be the regular season favorite for next season. But, I don't think it's right that any champion (not even Penn ) or harvard) face the additional barriers that Princeton may have to this year without so much as a bye or home court advantage in the tourney.

 
Bryan 
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02-27-17 01:32 PM - Post#223869    
    In response to SomeGuy

Thanks to you, Tiger69 and mrjames for explaining the way the tiebreaker works with regard to the four indices. Sorry I got it wrong and I agree the likelihood of a tie when all are added together is quite small.

 
Tiger69 
PhD Student
Posts: 1947

Reg: 11-23-04
02-27-17 08:08 PM - Post#223939    
    In response to Bryan

And, thanks to you, Bryan, for crediting me with something I didn't do --explaining tie breakers--which I do not even remotely understand. There has been an awful lot of thought devoted here to a very little. However, I will have to eat my words if, somehow, the eventual #4 seed goes on to win the bid.

 
penn nation 
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Re: tie breaker rules
02-27-17 08:11 PM - Post#223940    
    In response to Tiger69

  • Tiger69 Said:
But, I don't think it's right that any champion (not even Penn ) or harvard) face the additional barriers that Princeton may have to this year without so much as a bye or home court advantage in the tourney.



Now wait just a minute--you've earned the right to wear the home Ts. That's worth 3 whole points at minimum.


 
Chet Forte 
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02-27-17 09:31 PM - Post#223945    
    In response to penn nation

The tournament has given meaning to the end of the season for teams which would otherwise have been mathematically eliminated from playing for anything other than pride. I am glad that I was at the Penn Columbia game. It was one of the most intense, hard fought and basically evenly matched Ivy games that I have seen in years. Every possession was a war. Both teams played their hearts out. Maybe I wouldn't have been writing this if we had lost, to be sure, but it was really just a fantastic game to watch.


 
SomeGuy 
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02-27-17 09:59 PM - Post#223952    
    In response to Chet Forte

Yup. I thought it was awesome to watch, and the effort on both sides was great.



 
Columbia 37P6 
PhD Student
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Reg: 02-14-06
03-02-17 07:21 PM - Post#224342    
    In response to SomeGuy

Not sure I understand some of the tiebreaker scenarios posted on the Penn athletics website that were supposedly worked-up by Mr. James and others. In a couple of the scenarios such as where both Columbia and Penn sweep both weekend games, the Penn athletics website states that the third tiebreaker would kick in and Penn would get the fourth tournament place because Columbia and Penn's records against Dartmouth and Brown combined would both be 2-2. However, that seems incorrect because Columbia's actual record against Dartmouth and Brown combined would be 3-1, and not 2-2 so Columbia would seem to win the tiebreaker. Would someone please explain this?

 
SomeGuy 
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03-02-17 09:00 PM - Post#224367    
    In response to Columbia 37P6

My understanding is that If both sweep then we are down to who finishes higher between Brown and Cornell. Penn would need it to be Cornell in order to advance.

Not sure where you are seeing something different.

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
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03-03-17 12:44 AM - Post#224390    
    In response to Columbia 37P6

In the 7-7 options, it comes down to Brown finishing ahead of Cornell (Columbia wins) or not (Penn wins).

 
Murph 
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03-03-17 01:55 AM - Post#224394    
    In response to Chet Forte

  • Chet Forte Said:
The tournament has given meaning to the end of the season for teams which would otherwise have been mathematically eliminated from playing for anything other than pride. I am glad that I was at the Penn Columbia game. It was one of the most intense, hard fought and basically evenly matched Ivy games that I have seen in years. Every possession was a war. Both teams played their hearts out. Maybe I wouldn't have been writing this if we had lost, to be sure, but it was really just a fantastic game to watch.



I unfortunately was at the Princeton game last weekend, which as a real dud, and not the Penn game. I did watch the Penn game on the digital network.

But I agree that this Ivy League tournament is a great development and long over-due. Instead of being 7 games behind Princeton, and already looking toward next season, Columbia played in front of two sold-out crowds last weekend. And this weekend promises more must watch basketball for Lions fans.

And I'm sure Penn, Yale and Harvard fans feel the same way.


 
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