internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-21-17 05:01 PM - Post#222899
They've been announced. Sorry I can't copy them; website has it all.
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internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-21-17 05:16 PM - Post#222900
In response to internetter
Ivy League Basketball Tournaments Tiebreakers
Ivy League Basketball Tournaments Tiebreakers
The following are the tiebreakers that will be used to break up any ties for seeding or tournament berths.
I. In the case of a twoâ€way tie between teams in the final standings, the following process will be used until all ties are broken and the seeding process is completed (ties will be broken in rank order beginning with the highest seed):
Headâ€toâ€head competition †The higher seed will go to the team that has won the most League contests played against the other team involved in the tie.
If a tie still exists, the tie will be broken by comparing each team’s record against the highest seed outside of the tie and continuing through the lowest seed, if necessary.
If a tie still exists, an average of the most recent ratings indices identified in advance by the coaches (Men: Sagarin, Ken Pom, BPI and NCAA RPI; Women: Sagarin, RPIratings.com and NCAA RPI) will be utilized to determine the higher seed.
If a tie still persists, a draw will be conducted by the Executive Director
II. In the case of a multipleâ€team tie (more than two teams tied for the same spot), the following process will be used: Note: Once a highest seed (amongst the tied teams) is determined, the tie between the remaining seeds shall be determined on the basis of head-to-head competition.
Records between the tied teams – The higher seed will go to the team that has won the most League contests against the other teams tied at that spot.
If a tie still exists, the tie will be broken by comparing each team’s record against the highest seed outside of the tie and continuing through the lowest seed, if necessary.
If a tie still exists, an average of the most recent ratings indices identified in advance by the coaches (Men: Sagarin, Ken Pom, BPI and NCAA RPI; Women: Sagarin, RPIratings.com and NCAA RPI) will be utilized to determine the higher seed.
If a tie still persists, a draw will be conducted by the Executive Director
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3050
Reg: 10-20-14
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02-21-17 06:06 PM - Post#222904
In response to internetter
If I read that correctly, Columbia would hold the second tiebreaker with Penn since the Lions have one win against the present #2 team (Harvard) and the Quakers have one win against the #3 team (Yale).
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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tie breaker rules
02-21-17 06:16 PM - Post#222906
In response to rbg
Assuming Dartmouth or Cornell do not start going on a win streak and make it a 3 way or 4 way tie at the end, that is.
If I read that correctly, Columbia would hold the second tiebreaker with Penn since the Lions have one win against the present #2 team (Harvard) and the Quakers have one win against the #3 team (Yale).
Right, assuming that Penn loses to Columbia (otherwise it wins the first tiebreaker).
If Penn loses to Columbia, Columbia loses to Princeton and the teams are otherwise all square leading up to the last game, the Penn-Harvard and Columbia-Yale games at the end will be insane. If both Penn and Columbia win their final games, as I read it that means we go to the composite rankings to break the tie and Penn seems quite likely to win that one.
Edited by penn nation on 02-21-17 06:24 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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cc66
Postdoc
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Reg: 10-09-09
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02-21-17 06:29 PM - Post#222909
In response to penn nation
Then despite all the cognitive dissonance it arouses, we have no choice but to root for Harvard.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-21-17 06:32 PM - Post#222912
In response to cc66
To deprive the Tigers of an undefeated season--most certainly.
Then despite all the cognitive dissonance it arouses, we have no choice but to root for Harvard.
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cc66
Postdoc
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Reg: 10-09-09
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02-21-17 06:39 PM - Post#222913
In response to penn nation
That, and to ensure that the team we beat ranks higher than the team that Penn might beat.
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mrjames
Professor
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Loc: Montclair, NJ
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tie breaker rules
02-21-17 06:54 PM - Post#222918
In response to cc66
Penn will win the tiebreaker unless Columbia beats Princeton.
The vast, vast majority of paths for Penn to tie or beat Columbia involve either winning at Columbia (securing the H2H tiebreak) or beating Harvard at home (drawing on tiebreaks 1 & 2 and pushing this to ratings, where it will win easily).
Edited by mrjames on 02-21-17 07:21 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-21-17 06:59 PM - Post#222920
In response to cc66
That, and all of the kings horses and men, aint gonna be enough to have you vault over Penn in the composite ratings.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-21-17 07:00 PM - Post#222921
In response to mrjames
Nice sentence fragment. What did you mean to say in the part that completes the sentence?
The vast, vast majority of paths for Penn to tie or beat Columbia without either winning at Columbia (securing the H2H tiebreak) or beating Harvard at home (drawing on tiebreaks 1 & 2 and pushing this to ratings, where it will win easily).
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cc66
Postdoc
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Reg: 10-09-09
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02-21-17 07:01 PM - Post#222922
In response to mrjames
Why? If we beat Harvard, and they beat Yale, isn't our victory over Harvard against a higher ranked team than Penn's over Yale.
Sorry to be dense about this, but the tie-break rules seem unnecessarily complex and confusing.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-21-17 07:44 PM - Post#222928
In response to cc66
No problem, and I should be precise about the numbers, because the answer isn't 0%.
For Columbia's win over Harvard to be the difference, Columbia would need to beat Penn, yet underperform the Quakers by a game in the other three games WITHOUT Penn beating Harvard. And it would need to do so without a 3rd team matching Columbia and Penn, at which point things get really weird.
Those specific paths (essentially including Penn winning at Cornell and vs Dartmouth, losing at Columbia and home to Harvard and having Columbia lose to Princeton and exactly one of Brown or Yale) only happen in about 5% of sims. And while it's possible they could tie on 5 wins without anyone joining them, that happens in just 0.4% of sims. Thus, if Penn loses to Cornell on Friday night, it would clinch the tiebreaker with Columbia if it becomes necessary, because catching Columbia would require either beating the Lions or Harvard. (Again, all of this assuming Columbia doesn't beat Princeton - if it does, it would then just need to beat Penn to secure the tiebreak).
Even with 4 games left, there are still a ton of possible outcomes, that's why, to simplify, for two-way ties between these two teams basically it's easiest to think of Columbia needing a sweep this weekend to nab the tiebreak or a win over Penn and a very specific (and unlikely) set of Penn outcomes.
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roarlionroar
Freshman
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Age: 27
Reg: 02-05-14
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02-21-17 08:30 PM - Post#222934
In response to mrjames
That harvard-Yale game is huge.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-21-17 08:41 PM - Post#222936
In response to roarlionroar
Could swing things a bit, but the scenario under which you lose the tiebreak at 6-8 with Penn because Harvard/Yale flipped is slim (you'd have to beat Brown and lose to Princeton /Yale and Penn would have to beat Cornell and Dartmouth and lose to Harvard and Harvard would have to lose its spot to Yale despite beating Penn). That's the string of stuff that would have to happen to make that game meaningful for a 6-8 tie...
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roarlionroar
Freshman
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Age: 27
Reg: 02-05-14
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02-21-17 08:49 PM - Post#222941
In response to mrjames
What if Penn beats Cornell/Dartmouth and Columbia beats Penn/Brown and Harvard and Yale end up tied? Is that the scenario in which it goes to the third tie break?
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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tie breaker rules
02-21-17 08:52 PM - Post#222942
In response to roarlionroar
Another scenario for the 3rd tiebreak is if Penn beats Harvard, Columbia beats Yale and Columbia beats Penn. Assuming no other teams tie Penn and Columbia, that is.
What if Penn beats Cornell/Dartmouth and Columbia beats Penn/Brown and Harvard and Yale end up tied? Is that the scenario in which it goes to the third tie break?
Edited by penn nation on 02-21-17 08:57 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-21-17 08:58 PM - Post#222946
In response to penn nation
So far as I understand, they'd break Harvard/Yale tie first. Which would involve H2H (in this case, assume a push), then record vs Princeton (either Harv or a push). After that it would go to the ratings, which I believe Harvard leads now and probably would hang on to unless they got destroyed in their losses. It would be close, though...
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: tie breaker rules
02-21-17 09:02 PM - Post#222948
In response to penn nation
Unless Columbia beats Princeton, Penn beating Harvard would secure the tiebreak. They'd both be 0-2 vs PRIN, 1-1 vs Harvard and Yale at worst. Would go to ratings and Penn's gonna win there.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: tie breaker rules
02-21-17 09:07 PM - Post#222950
In response to mrjames
Yes, although we'd only get to that 3rd tiebreak if Columbia beats Yale along with Penn beating Harvard.
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Bryan
Junior
Posts: 231
Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-21-17 10:52 PM - Post#222956
In response to internetter
I realize it's unlikely to happen, but the third tiebreak procedure was very poorly chosen.The men's coaches chose 4 indices to consider, as copied below from the message from internetter.
"If a tie still exists, an average of the most recent ratings indices identified in advance by the coaches (Men: Sagarin, Ken Pom, BPI and NCAA RPI)
Why in the world would you pick 4 indices, which has some chance to give a 2-2 split and force a coin flip, when you can just as easily choose 3 or 5?
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