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Username Post: Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY        (Topic#20000)
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 49

Reg: 11-30-16
03-08-17 10:03 PM - Post#225780    
    In response to hoops123

That was the assumption. If you follow someone on twitter, it is hard to know if an account is private or public.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 261

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
03-08-17 10:53 PM - Post#225796    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:
This thread lost me when it started arguing that coaches don't have the best take on what's going on in this league. You don't have to agree with their calls, but it's pretty ballsy to contend that your judgment is better than theirs.

Even when I point out stuff I don't agree with (and Twitter followers know that's A LOT), I do so with a fundamental understanding that I don't have better basketball judgment than the coach, and there's probably something I'm missing.



People used to say the same thing about the "Coaches' Poll" until Rick Majerus blew that myth apart.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/893026/Majeru s-...

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4617

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
03-08-17 10:59 PM - Post#225801    
    In response to Go Green

Coaches in this league take this seriously. Obviously can't speak for other leagues and coaches and polls may very well be a different beast than end of season awards.

 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 981

Reg: 02-15-15
03-08-17 11:04 PM - Post#225803    
    In response to mrjames

Again, they do take it seriously but they do not agree or speak with one voice. This isn't an us against them thing. Aiken got in over EB because he got more votes. they didn't all agree

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4133

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY
03-08-17 11:50 PM - Post#225814    
    In response to mrjames

I'd like to take my response down as well, but I seem to have lost the ability to edit it for some reason. Do you have the power to remove it?

Not my intention to publicize a reaction that wasn't meant to be public.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4133

Reg: 11-22-04
03-09-17 12:12 AM - Post#225817    
    In response to hoops123

I think Boudreaux is a tremendous basketball player. Unfortunately, these sorts of debates often turn into what a guy isn't in order to make a point. My point is only to emphasize that I agree with the first team selections (and they turned out to match my predictions). To me, that's not hating -- it's saying something positive about Weisz, Cook, Stephens, Spieth, and Chambers. I don't see or intend any insult to Boudreaux in doing that.

remember that you and I have had some debates on here before because I have had the audacity to say supportive things about Fleming, Cormier, and Mcglaughlin. I think if you read my stuff a little more, you'll see that I'm generally pretty positive.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2003

Reg: 11-23-04
03-09-17 12:21 AM - Post#225818    
    In response to SomeGuy

I hope that the players are not taking this beauty contest half as seriously as their fans are. For the record, I would prefer not to,play against either one. By the way, what is the prize that they are fighting over?

 
Mike Porter 
Postdoc
Posts: 2135
Mike Porter
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY
03-09-17 01:20 AM - Post#225826    
    In response to Tiger69

Interesting conversation and not surprised Dartmouth fans and others are annoyed with the results, though honestly I saw this coming from a mile away. Personally I think EB on second team makes sense. Great player, but buttom line is that his numbers dropped across the board (shooting, 3pt shooting, FTS, and team wins). Of course there are some factors not fully in his control for why, but if a guy puts up worse numbers and the team is worse, it's not unreasonable that he'd stay at same level awards as last year.

Certainly don't think I know more than the coaches, but frankly what surprised me was Aiken on first team. Don't see that (expect it plenty moving forward but don't think he earned it this year). Second team for sure, but for me the other 5 first teamers make complete sense.

Hell, even if you look at stats, Kenpom doesn't have Aiken first team either:

Rank Player
1 Steven Cook, Princeton (Sr)
2 AJ Brodeur, Penn (Fr)
3 Spencer Weisz, Princeton (Sr)
4 Devin Cannady, Princeton (So)
5 Myles Stephens, Princeton (So)

I expected he would get ROY - though personally I was leaning towards Oni, this is a totally fair result.

End of the day though, none of this means crap. As a Penn fan, I don't care where AJ is as long as we get better next year (and hey a few upsets this year works too)!

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 261

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY
03-09-17 08:36 AM - Post#225839    
    In response to Mike Porter

  • Mike Porter Said:
Interesting conversation and not surprised Dartmouth fans and others are annoyed with the results,



I feel bad for Boudreaux, but don't be surprised to see some sort of "makeup" from the coaches next year or year after.

Dartmouth fans howled in protest when Dalyn Williams was only named to the second team his senior year in football. Many in the league thought he was the best player overall.

The following year, Dartmouth's Flo Orimolade got defensive player of the year even though the team finished last. I can't help but wonder if some of the coaches regretted their votes the year before and that this was their way of saying "sorry about that" to Dartmouth.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4133

Reg: 11-22-04
03-09-17 09:06 AM - Post#225843    
    In response to penn nation

Yes. While I am a proponent of winning games being something that gets considered (heavily) in terms of who makes first team, I think it should be considered most in instances where a team like Princeton goes 14-0. As we discussed this on the board, there were a few comments that suggested that making the Ivy tournament ought to have some bearing. However, I'm not sure I really see a significant difference between Penn going 6-8 and Dartmouth going 4-10 (and beating Penn twice) -- certainly not one that would be significant enough for me to say that Penn's best player gets equal billing to Dartmouth's best player. If Columbia got the last spot at 5-9, I don't think I'd elevate Petrasek to 1st team just because they made the tournament.

Of course, I presume that not all members of the 2nd team got the same number of votes. I suspect Broudeaux got more votes than Brodeur.

 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3259

Reg: 11-23-04
03-09-17 05:48 PM - Post#225939    
    In response to SomeGuy

Don't know why Kenpom doesn't include Spieth on First Team. 1st in scoring, FTs taken, FT made, 2nd in Mins., 7th in steals, 8th in RBs, 12th in Assists, etc. He was First Team on virtually everyone else's.

 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 981

Reg: 02-15-15
03-09-17 06:58 PM - Post#225955    
    In response to Old Bear

  • Old Bear Said:
Don't know why Kenpom doesn't include Spieth on First Team. 1st in scoring, FTs taken, FT made, 2nd in Mins., 7th in steals, 8th in RBs, 12th in Assists, etc. He was First Team on virtually everyone else's.



The KenPom coaches have better judgment than everyone else.


 
whitakk 
Sophomore
Posts: 144

Age: 26
Reg: 11-11-14
03-09-17 07:33 PM - Post#225960    
    In response to PennFan10

There's a heavy team ranking component to KenPom's kPOY formula, so it's hard for someone from a bottom-tier team to place highly.

 
umbrellaman 
Senior
Posts: 353
umbrellaman
Reg: 11-21-04
03-09-17 11:20 PM - Post#226000    
    In response to SomeGuy

It's remarkable how fairly consistent the biases towards seniors and winning teams has been over the years to where we expect it, or are surprised when it isn't there. All thecoaches I think are cognizant of the guys who won't have another chance at it; that being said, it's not a conspiracy
- each coach puts their ballot in and they count them up.

As much as I like advanced metrics, I'm going to give an curmudgeonly old man reason for Boudreaux- it's supposed to be a "team" and you don't have a big. Now I know it's not by position, and lord knows how you would translate Weisz, Cook or Stephens all of whom play the interchangeable Princeton wing position. But, especially with evolution of the game away from true post bigs - if it's close I put the big guy on the first team. Take Chambers, Boudreaux - take any 3 of the five remaining first teamers and you have a team.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4133

Reg: 11-22-04
03-10-17 10:10 AM - Post#226026    
    In response to umbrellaman

Interesting. I'm curious whether the coaches vote that way. You could see them all putting together more of a "team" with a traditional big and point, but then once the votes are counted you could still get a team of all bigs or all guards.

And on the court, your Princeton team kind of challenges the notion -- sometimes, it looks to me like Princeton is just playing 5 wings. You've got some length and versatility among the wings that let's you do it and still play great defense.

 
whitakk 
Sophomore
Posts: 144

Age: 26
Reg: 11-11-14
03-10-17 10:53 AM - Post#226042    
    In response to SomeGuy

Right -- Stephens probably played the five as often as Boudreaux, at least by the end of the season.

I think All-Ivy should just reward the best five players, regardless of position -- it's just an award, after all. But it's interesting to think about.

 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3259

Reg: 11-23-04
03-10-17 12:19 PM - Post#226065    
    In response to whitakk

Spieth also played the 5, at times.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3084

Reg: 02-04-06
03-10-17 02:12 PM - Post#226111    
    In response to Old Bear

I remember when people criticized Henderson a few years ago for having a starting lineup of five forwards. But then the objection was more about mismatches at the guard spots.

 
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