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Username Post: Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY        (Topic#20000)
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9178

Reg: 12-02-04
03-08-17 04:58 PM - Post#225668    
    In response to TheLine

A head scratcher that he and AJ share equal billing since at least in Ivy play there was a world of difference between the two

 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 49

Reg: 11-30-16
03-08-17 05:01 PM - Post#225671    
    In response to penn nation

If his freshman year was better, and both years were better than Aiken, it seems time to solve for x.

Looks like it comes down to winning and name recognition.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 806

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
03-08-17 05:02 PM - Post#225672    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

Meaningless distinction: 1st vs 2nd team
Seems to me that team success is a key element and they ran out of room and so chose Spieth (Sr) over Boudreaux (So). I had expected them both to make it.

 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 74

Age: 47
Reg: 12-14-16
03-08-17 05:06 PM - Post#225673    
    In response to mrjames

I think you are giving the coaches way too much credit here. That means they blew it on Boudreaux last year then. Spieth in a tie this year? C'mon. He was a flat out 1st teamer along with Boudreaux. Boudreaux on 2nd team two years in a row AVERAGING A DOUBLE DOUBLE IN CONFERENCE PLAY BOTH YEARS? Aiken on the team is the joke of jokes. I reiterate: I believe that no matter what Boudreaux's numbers were this year, even with better/higher efficiency, he wasn't making first team. And that's a joke. The awards are a joke.

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4601

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
03-08-17 05:10 PM - Post#225676    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

I don't see where I said that both years were better than Aiken.

Aiken shot just over 50 eFG% on 28% USG and Shots with an assist rate over 20%. Both players had really nice offensive years as freshmen. Both players aren't highly regarded defensively. I do think the reason why Aiken as a freshman got 1st Team and Boudreaux as a freshman got 2nd Team has to do both with there being a bit of a gap beyond Princeton's three this year than there was beyond Yale's three last year and winning played a role for sure.

 
Frodo 
Pre-Frosh
Posts: 4

Age: 52
Reg: 01-27-16
Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY
03-08-17 05:13 PM - Post#225679    
    In response to mrjames

I don't think the coaches look at advanced metrics when picking these teams. Advanced metrics are for geeks like us. Last year or this year Boudreaux not making the 1st team is a joke. Like I stated on another thread, its a beauty contest. But to put Aiken on there, even forgetting he is a freshman, over Boudreaux? Harvard coach must be making calls to other coaches. Nothing he showed this year deserves first team, maybe not even 2nd team. It was a close call on ROY.

Edited by Frodo on 03-08-17 05:14 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
JadwinGeorge 
Sophomore
Posts: 189

Age: 69
Reg: 12-04-15
03-08-17 05:21 PM - Post#225681    
    In response to Frodo

Thrilling and entirely fair that Weisz and Cook were unanimous choices. I would be just as happy if Cook was POY, but Spencer Weisz is the Coach On The Floor with more minutes played than anyone and an unprecedented stat line. The contributions of Myles Stephens can't be overstated. Congrats to all. Leaving Boudreaux off the first team is more than a little mystifying.....

 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 961

Reg: 02-15-15
03-08-17 05:25 PM - Post#225683    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

I have to agree the only "stunner" in here is Aiken over EB. As I mentioned before Aiken wasn't even on the floor during the final possession for Harvard last Saturday vs Penn and doesn't start for Harvard. If he isn't in Amakers top 5...

 
Tiger69 
PhD Student
Posts: 1984

Reg: 11-23-04
Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY
03-08-17 05:41 PM - Post#225688    
    In response to PennFan10

No dog in this fight. But, from my skewed view, Aiken fell somewhat short of his high billing against Princeton. He was outstanding, but still vulnerable to occasional freshmen behavior. Siyani, I recall, had to settle him down a couple of times after, what Aiken felt, were bad calls. He also took at least a couple of ill advised shots that in a tight game might have been the difference.

EB always excels and is always under control of himself. If I had to choose one or the other, I would be inclined toward EB.

Edited by Tiger69 on 03-08-17 05:42 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 74

Age: 47
Reg: 12-14-16
03-08-17 05:43 PM - Post#225689    
    In response to mrjames

Basic metrics: Boudreaux 954 points and 511 rebounds in 54 games. Heading for a 2000+ point career (assuming his scoring average goes up slightly over last two years) and 1000+ rebound career. 25 career double doubles through his sophomore season. Ivy Coaches: Anyone else on your "first team" got numbers like that? Think any of your "first team" underclassmen are heading in that direction? The answer is a resounding NO...

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9178

Reg: 12-02-04
03-08-17 05:57 PM - Post#225693    
    In response to hoops123

You're preaching to the converted although by changing the metrics there are others such as AJ whose performance also looks much better (setting an all time Quaker blocks record in his freshman campaign for example)

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4601

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
03-08-17 06:06 PM - Post#225696    
    In response to hoops123

There is way more to basketball than those counting stats. Both from a metrics perspective and from a qualitative perspective.

I don't think the coaches were unaware of those numbers. That should tell you something.

 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 74

Age: 47
Reg: 12-14-16
03-08-17 06:35 PM - Post#225700    
    In response to mrjames

I'm well aware of that, thank you. What it tells me is that this really is a beauty contest for players on winning teams. Aiken is proof of that. 3 Princetons, two Harvards, and they threw senior Spieth a bone calling it a "tie". And I actually don't think the coaches give a crap about stats, as if they did, Aiken would not be on the team. And I'll say it again: if Boudreaux had high efficiency numbers, led the league in scoring and rebounding, played better defense (he is a very good defender for a forward forced to play center) he still would not be on the first team because Dartmouth did not win. Period.

 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 2894

Age: 53
Reg: 07-07-09
03-08-17 06:36 PM - Post#225701    
    In response to mrjames

So here's we're I'm in a quandry.

The advanced season metrics show Brodeur slightly better than Boudreaux. I think very highly about Brodeur and of advanced metrics. I also think very highly of Aiken - anyone can look up my posts.

However I agree with the Dartmouth posters that Boudreaux had a better season and outplayed Brodeur twice. And I'd put him on the 1st team over Aiken. Boudreaux's super high 30% usage rate (and he's by no means a ball hog) and higher mpg has to be accounted for.


 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9178

Reg: 12-02-04
03-08-17 06:40 PM - Post#225702    
    In response to TheLine

It's hard to argue that AJ had a better Ivy season than Boudreaux no matter what metrics you use.

But if you change the criteria to the entire season (which is not what this list is about), then there's much less daylight between the two.

 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 961

Reg: 02-15-15
03-08-17 06:42 PM - Post#225704    
    In response to TheLine

Yeah, saying the coaches used advance metrics to put Aiken ahead of EB strikes me as disingenuous.

There isn't really a good reason, other than team winning % to put Aiken on the 1st team ahead of EB. I am with hoops123 on this. This was a big miss by the coaches.

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 3392

Reg: 11-22-04
03-08-17 07:05 PM - Post#225709    
    In response to PennFan10

i honestly don't understand how obtuse you all are here. The advanced metrics are perfectly GREAT reasons to put Aiken above Boudreaux. That doesn't mean you are an genius if you prefer Boudreaux over Aiken on the 1st team.

But if you are crapping on the advanced metrics to make that case, then yeah, maybe you are an genius.

 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 2894

Age: 53
Reg: 07-07-09
03-08-17 07:12 PM - Post#225710    
    In response to Jeff2sf

The advanced metrics would be a perfectly GREAT reason to put Matt Howard on the 1st team. So why not do that?

Even though Matt Howard's advanced metrics are BETTER than Aiken's, Matt didn't even get on 2nd team.


 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 49

Reg: 11-30-16
Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY
03-08-17 07:15 PM - Post#225711    
    In response to Jeff2sf

If that isn't sarcasm then I'm the most obtuse person to ever live.

Aiken started 8 games(!!!!) and put up solid, but not crazy stats. He averaged less than 3 assists a game as a backup PG on a team loaded with weapons. He shouldn't even be ROY.

It doesn't make you a genius to prefer Boudreaux, it makes you logical and correct.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4127

Reg: 11-22-04
Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY
03-08-17 07:29 PM - Post#225716    
    In response to hoops123

I missed on Aiken (though I'll pat myself on the back by pointing out that I nailed the other 5 first teamers and all the awards). Historically, freshmen just don't make first team. But the issue with Harvard is this -- why exactly do they win? The whole goal is winning games. Somebody on that team is playing at an all-Ivy level if you clearly have the 2nd best team in the league. On a team that starts 4 freshmen, you have to acknowledge that a freshman might be playing at an All-Ivy level.

So i am actually more surprised by Aiken on 1st team than the exclusion of Boudreaux, but I am not outraged that Aiken made it.

Edited by SomeGuy on 03-08-17 07:29 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
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