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Username Post: Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY        (Topic#20000)
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4564

Loc: Jersey City, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
03-08-17 07:39 PM - Post#225717    
    In response to SomeGuy

This thread lost me when it started arguing that coaches don't have the best take on what's going on in this league. You don't have to agree with their calls, but it's pretty ballsy to contend that your judgment is better than theirs.

Even when I point out stuff I don't agree with (and Twitter followers know that's A LOT), I do so with a fundamental understanding that I don't have better basketball judgment than the coach, and there's probably something I'm missing.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3038

Reg: 02-04-06
03-08-17 07:43 PM - Post#225719    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

My sample of Aiken's games is limited--I saw him against Stanford, Houston, Princeton twice, Penn once, some of Yale once. My sample of the other contenders was also limited. Based on those games and the reported counting and efficiency stats, I have a hard time putting Aiken on the first team.

I see the statistical rationale--he effectively used a lot of possessions on the second-place team in the league. But it seemed to me that he also did a lot of things to help his team lose, once he got scouted in conference, taking bad shots, throwing bad passes, getting toasted on D, dribbling into traffic for hopeless off-balance attempts against rotating shot blockers with time on the shot clock, losing his cool, etc. There was a downward trend to his performance as the season wore on, as far as I could tell. I would rather have Mike Smith as my PG than Aiken right now, although by next year the picture may look very different. (Announcers' comparisons of Aiken to his mentor/buddy Kyrie Irving seemed laughable--I watched Irving in college, and he was on a different level. The Ivy player with the game closest to Irving's, offensively, that I saw is Alex Copeland.)

Boudreaux occasionally would matador D a guy when he was tired or in foul trouble, but generally was a super-steady force on the offensive end, surrounded by defenses geared to shut him down. He showed good shooting range from outside to go with his drives and post-up moves, and he tirelessly vacuumed up rebounds. He was a steadying influence on a team that desperately needed him to play very well just to compete.

 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 49

Reg: 11-30-16
03-08-17 08:08 PM - Post#225727    
    In response to SRP

I think it comes down to taxonomy. If the coaches/league/whoever think that the all ivy teams represent the best players on the best teams so be it.

However, don't argue that it's the top 5 (or 6) players in the league and pull something like this.

It's also questionable that you think it's wrong to question the coaches. As we've seen across the league- a lot of these coaches are far from perfect and I think suggesting we can't crticize their actions in this is pretty "obtuse." They were wrong. Counting stats, eye test, advanced metrics, all make a case for Boudreaux. If you want to cherry pick some advanced stats like usage % or defensive efficiency go ahead- but I can do the same thing for 95% of Boudreauxs other stats.



 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 946

Reg: 02-15-15
03-08-17 08:19 PM - Post#225730    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:
This thread lost me when it started arguing that coaches don't have the best take on what's going on in this league. You don't have to agree with their calls, but it's pretty ballsy to contend that your judgment is better than theirs.

Even when I point out stuff I don't agree with (and Twitter followers know that's A LOT), I do so with a fundamental understanding that I don't have better basketball judgment than the coach, and there's probably something I'm missing.



With all due respect, you speak as if the coaches are all one voice and they all agree. There were exactly 2 unanimous choices by my count. Coaches have different agendas and opinions for these things too. I certainly don't have better basketball judgment than any of the coaches but this is not merely a basketball decision as you suggest. If the coaches all agreed the whole thing would be unanimous.

And I am pretty sure the selection of Aiken and not EB was not without controversy among the coaches.



 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4564

Loc: Jersey City, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
03-08-17 08:30 PM - Post#225733    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

I never said it was wrong to question the coaches or criticize them. I said it was ballsy to presume your basketball judgment was better than theirs.

Your opinion that the coaches were wrong is just that - your opinion. In the opinion of the coaches you were wrong. I have more faith in their judgment than yours.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4104

Reg: 11-22-04
03-08-17 08:50 PM - Post#225738    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

The advanced stats almost all favor Aiken over Boudreaux, and by a wde margin. Rebounding percentage is about the only place he comes out ahead. So I'm not sure what you are referencing here about advanced stats favoring Boudreaux.

 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 2740

Age: 53
Reg: 07-07-09
Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY
03-08-17 08:57 PM - Post#225742    
    In response to SomeGuy

But the advanced metrics don't put Aiken in the Top 5.

If we were going strictly by advanced metrics then the All-Ivy team would probably be 3-4 Princeton players, then Spieth and/or Howard.

And Howard doesn't make even the 2nd team.

I'll buy that some of this comes down to 'coaches judgment'.

My judgement would put Boudreaux on the 1st team.


Edited by TheLine on 03-08-17 08:59 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 49

Reg: 11-30-16
Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY
03-08-17 09:00 PM - Post#225743    
    In response to mrjames

See that is where you have lost me. If i was a single "voice crying out in the wilderness" then I'd happily eat my medicine, say "dang, what a crazy world we live in" and fade into obscurity until next season.

The above scenario isn't the case. More than just myself think this is, at the very least, shocking. I think its disrespectful, not just to Boudreaux, but to Dartmouth as a whole.

I think its ballsy to presume that this revolves around basketball judgment and not politics or other extraneous factors. Give me a double blind experiment where all the coaches can see is stats (both counting and "advanced") and team records and I would eat my big winter hat if they didn't choose Boudreaux for 1st team 8/8 times.


SomeGuy: I'm not sure what advanced stats you take a look at. Stuart Suss's post as well as Hollingers PER dont put Aiken in the top 10. PER alone has him at #20.

Edited by SomeDartmouthStudent on 03-08-17 09:02 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 49

Reg: 11-30-16
Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY
03-08-17 09:06 PM - Post#225746    
    In response to SomeGuy

Hot take alert

Regardless of how absurd it is that you are reading into a benign tweet regarding its future ramifications, his account is locked and I for some reason can't even find it. Looks like Mr. James might be one of the lucky followers.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4104

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY
03-08-17 09:07 PM - Post#225747    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

I was looking at ORAT and win shares per 40, mainly. Is Boudreaux ahead of Aiken in PER?

 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 49

Reg: 11-30-16
Re: Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY
03-08-17 09:09 PM - Post#225750    
    In response to SomeGuy

Yeah- Boudreaux sits at 8 with a 19.95 as opposed to a 17.21. Both good, but Aikens is clearly closer to an "average season"

Edited by SomeDartmouthStudent on 03-08-17 09:09 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4104

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY
03-08-17 09:10 PM - Post#225751    
    In response to TheLine

Correct, and that's why I had Aiken as HM on my list. I didn't take the possibility of a tie into account (which is what produces 6 -- no tiebreakers for all-Ivy), but if I had a 6th, it wouldn't have been Aiken.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4104

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY
03-08-17 09:14 PM - Post#225752    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

What about per 40?

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4564

Loc: Jersey City, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY
03-08-17 09:21 PM - Post#225755    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

Didnt realize his account was locked. Taking that posted tweet down.

 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3222

Reg: 11-23-04
03-08-17 09:22 PM - Post#225756    
    In response to SomeGuy

A lot of interesting stuff here. Let me think about this, do I side with the fans on these boards, or with the Coaches who have watched hours and hours of films, discussed them with their knowledgeable staff members, and then voted, though not allowed to vote for their own players. Hum.....

 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 49

Reg: 11-30-16
Re: Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY
03-08-17 09:23 PM - Post#225757    
    In response to SomeGuy

PER is a per minute adjusted statistic.

Edited by SomeDartmouthStudent on 03-08-17 09:24 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 74

Age: 46
Reg: 12-14-16
03-08-17 09:52 PM - Post#225773    
    In response to SomeGuy

Do you seriously pay attention SomeGuy? Boudreaux's coach has gone on record in multiple interviews explaining how the offense is totally designed to go through Evan. Watch a game all the way through sometime. So, because his coach orders the players to go through Boudreaux, you deem him selfish. Whatever man. Haters are gonna hate. EVERY play is designed for Boudreaux to touch the ball and for him to make decisions with it. With your astute observations, how did that one escape you? And guess what efficiency stats don't measure? Heart, toughness, being in the right place at the right time, running the floor, energy, conditioning (more mins) high basketball IQ, diving on the floor for loose balls, deflections, great passes that don't result in assists, boxing out so your teammate gets the rebound, taking on double teams and passing the ball out to your teammates (who this year 90% of the time didn't make the open shots so he doesn't get the assist), taking offensive charges, slide helping on defense, leading a team, etc. Boudreaux excels at those non efficiency non measurables. For high usage players, Evan has the best ORTG on his team at 103.4 in conference. Spencer Weiss in conference was 101.6. Aiken is 99.9 in conference. I do recall these are IVY LEAGUE conference awards. Boudreaux writing that he forgot that this wasn't the 5 best players in the league is 100% correct. It isn't. And the coaches have proven that with their 100% subjective voting. I would like to see what the Ivy League gives the coaches to guide them in their decision making for end of year awards. Because the process now is crap; subjective and biased and definitely not stats based.

 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 74

Age: 46
Reg: 12-14-16
Re: Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY
03-08-17 09:54 PM - Post#225775    
    In response to mrjames

Maybe you've hurt his reputation by posting a locked account tweet. Hmmmmm

 
SomeDartmouthStudent 
Freshman
Posts: 49

Reg: 11-30-16
03-08-17 09:56 PM - Post#225776    
    In response to hoops123

^ wouldn't go that far. Classy move to take it down. A public twitter profile is a public forum and criticizing what people say on it is a thing these days. mrjames certainly meant no harm.

 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 74

Age: 46
Reg: 12-14-16
03-08-17 10:02 PM - Post#225779    
    In response to SomeDartmouthStudent

Private twitter profile. Not public

 
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