SomeDartmouthStudent
Freshman
Posts: 68
Reg: 11-30-16
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03-08-17 10:03 PM - Post#225780
In response to hoops123
That was the assumption. If you follow someone on twitter, it is hard to know if an account is private or public.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1152
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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03-08-17 10:53 PM - Post#225796
In response to mrjames
This thread lost me when it started arguing that coaches don't have the best take on what's going on in this league. You don't have to agree with their calls, but it's pretty ballsy to contend that your judgment is better than theirs.
Even when I point out stuff I don't agree with (and Twitter followers know that's A LOT), I do so with a fundamental understanding that I don't have better basketball judgment than the coach, and there's probably something I'm missing.
People used to say the same thing about the "Coaches' Poll" until Rick Majerus blew that myth apart.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/893026/Majeru s-...
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-08-17 10:59 PM - Post#225801
In response to Go Green
Coaches in this league take this seriously. Obviously can't speak for other leagues and coaches and polls may very well be a different beast than end of season awards.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-08-17 11:04 PM - Post#225803
In response to mrjames
Again, they do take it seriously but they do not agree or speak with one voice. This isn't an us against them thing. Aiken got in over EB because he got more votes. they didn't all agree
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY 03-08-17 11:50 PM - Post#225814
In response to mrjames
I'd like to take my response down as well, but I seem to have lost the ability to edit it for some reason. Do you have the power to remove it?
Not my intention to publicize a reaction that wasn't meant to be public.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-09-17 12:12 AM - Post#225817
In response to hoops123
I think Boudreaux is a tremendous basketball player. Unfortunately, these sorts of debates often turn into what a guy isn't in order to make a point. My point is only to emphasize that I agree with the first team selections (and they turned out to match my predictions). To me, that's not hating -- it's saying something positive about Weisz, Cook, Stephens, Spieth, and Chambers. I don't see or intend any insult to Boudreaux in doing that.
remember that you and I have had some debates on here before because I have had the audacity to say supportive things about Fleming, Cormier, and Mcglaughlin. I think if you read my stuff a little more, you'll see that I'm generally pretty positive.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2818
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-09-17 12:21 AM - Post#225818
In response to SomeGuy
I hope that the players are not taking this beauty contest half as seriously as their fans are. For the record, I would prefer not to,play against either one. By the way, what is the prize that they are fighting over?
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY 03-09-17 01:20 AM - Post#225826
In response to Tiger69
Interesting conversation and not surprised Dartmouth fans and others are annoyed with the results, though honestly I saw this coming from a mile away. Personally I think EB on second team makes sense. Great player, but buttom line is that his numbers dropped across the board (shooting, 3pt shooting, FTS, and team wins). Of course there are some factors not fully in his control for why, but if a guy puts up worse numbers and the team is worse, it's not unreasonable that he'd stay at same level awards as last year.
Certainly don't think I know more than the coaches, but frankly what surprised me was Aiken on first team. Don't see that (expect it plenty moving forward but don't think he earned it this year). Second team for sure, but for me the other 5 first teamers make complete sense.
Hell, even if you look at stats, Kenpom doesn't have Aiken first team either:
Rank Player
1 Steven Cook, Princeton (Sr)
2 AJ Brodeur, Penn (Fr)
3 Spencer Weisz, Princeton (Sr)
4 Devin Cannady, Princeton (So)
5 Myles Stephens, Princeton (So)
I expected he would get ROY - though personally I was leaning towards Oni, this is a totally fair result.
End of the day though, none of this means crap. As a Penn fan, I don't care where AJ is as long as we get better next year (and hey a few upsets this year works too)!
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1152
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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Re: Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY 03-09-17 08:36 AM - Post#225839
In response to Mike Porter
Interesting conversation and not surprised Dartmouth fans and others are annoyed with the results,
I feel bad for Boudreaux, but don't be surprised to see some sort of "makeup" from the coaches next year or year after.
Dartmouth fans howled in protest when Dalyn Williams was only named to the second team his senior year in football. Many in the league thought he was the best player overall.
The following year, Dartmouth's Flo Orimolade got defensive player of the year even though the team finished last. I can't help but wonder if some of the coaches regretted their votes the year before and that this was their way of saying "sorry about that" to Dartmouth.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-09-17 09:06 AM - Post#225843
In response to penn nation
Yes. While I am a proponent of winning games being something that gets considered (heavily) in terms of who makes first team, I think it should be considered most in instances where a team like Princeton goes 14-0. As we discussed this on the board, there were a few comments that suggested that making the Ivy tournament ought to have some bearing. However, I'm not sure I really see a significant difference between Penn going 6-8 and Dartmouth going 4-10 (and beating Penn twice) -- certainly not one that would be significant enough for me to say that Penn's best player gets equal billing to Dartmouth's best player. If Columbia got the last spot at 5-9, I don't think I'd elevate Petrasek to 1st team just because they made the tournament.
Of course, I presume that not all members of the 2nd team got the same number of votes. I suspect Broudeaux got more votes than Brodeur.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 4005
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-09-17 05:48 PM - Post#225939
In response to SomeGuy
Don't know why Kenpom doesn't include Spieth on First Team. 1st in scoring, FTs taken, FT made, 2nd in Mins., 7th in steals, 8th in RBs, 12th in Assists, etc. He was First Team on virtually everyone else's.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-09-17 06:58 PM - Post#225955
In response to Old Bear
Don't know why Kenpom doesn't include Spieth on First Team. 1st in scoring, FTs taken, FT made, 2nd in Mins., 7th in steals, 8th in RBs, 12th in Assists, etc. He was First Team on virtually everyone else's.
The KenPom coaches have better judgment than everyone else.
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whitakk
Masters Student
Posts: 523
Age: 32
Reg: 11-11-14
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03-09-17 07:33 PM - Post#225960
In response to PennFan10
There's a heavy team ranking component to KenPom's kPOY formula, so it's hard for someone from a bottom-tier team to place highly.
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umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts: 476
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-09-17 11:20 PM - Post#226000
In response to SomeGuy
It's remarkable how fairly consistent the biases towards seniors and winning teams has been over the years to where we expect it, or are surprised when it isn't there. All thecoaches I think are cognizant of the guys who won't have another chance at it; that being said, it's not a conspiracy
- each coach puts their ballot in and they count them up.
As much as I like advanced metrics, I'm going to give an curmudgeonly old man reason for Boudreaux- it's supposed to be a "team" and you don't have a big. Now I know it's not by position, and lord knows how you would translate Weisz, Cook or Stephens all of whom play the interchangeable Princeton wing position. But, especially with evolution of the game away from true post bigs - if it's close I put the big guy on the first team. Take Chambers, Boudreaux - take any 3 of the five remaining first teamers and you have a team.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-10-17 10:10 AM - Post#226026
In response to umbrellaman
Interesting. I'm curious whether the coaches vote that way. You could see them all putting together more of a "team" with a traditional big and point, but then once the votes are counted you could still get a team of all bigs or all guards.
And on the court, your Princeton team kind of challenges the notion -- sometimes, it looks to me like Princeton is just playing 5 wings. You've got some length and versatility among the wings that let's you do it and still play great defense.
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whitakk
Masters Student
Posts: 523
Age: 32
Reg: 11-11-14
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03-10-17 10:53 AM - Post#226042
In response to SomeGuy
Right -- Stephens probably played the five as often as Boudreaux, at least by the end of the season.
I think All-Ivy should just reward the best five players, regardless of position -- it's just an award, after all. But it's interesting to think about.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 4005
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-10-17 12:19 PM - Post#226065
In response to whitakk
Spieth also played the 5, at times.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4919
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-10-17 02:12 PM - Post#226111
In response to Old Bear
I remember when people criticized Henderson a few years ago for having a starting lineup of five forwards. But then the objection was more about mismatches at the guard spots.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY 11-10-17 01:13 PM - Post#235813
In response to SomeDartmouthStudent
or he transfers out...
I think its solidly disrespectful that 6 made 1st team, and one of them was Aiken. Clearly in this case, team quality was a determining factor on an individual award.
BUMP! SDS for the win...
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2698
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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11-10-17 02:34 PM - Post#235828
In response to digamma
Mike,
Can't help but notice that you don't seem as bullish on Yale as others do - including myself. Your twitter simulations places some distance between HP and Y, and has Penn gaining ground on 3rd place.
Care to share?
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