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Username Post: Get the Lawyers Ready        (Topic#20022)
westphillywarrior 
Sophomore
Posts: 130

Age: 36
Reg: 01-08-11
02-26-17 12:39 PM - Post#223743    

If "The Committee" is going to change the tie breaker rules now, I'd say get the lawyers ready.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9178

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Get the Lawyers Ready
02-26-17 01:03 PM - Post#223752    
    In response to westphillywarrior

I just read mike James Twitter feed and yes this is patently absurd

The tie breaking rules made it appear like one set of criteria would be used but now they directly replied to mikes query that ALL head to heads against ALL ivy teams are now the criteria

First this really really hurts Penn. But more importantly it does not allow any of the contending teams to directly determine their fate next weekend which does not pass the smell test

Yes bring out the lawyers

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9178

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Get the Lawyers Ready
02-26-17 01:20 PM - Post#223757    
    In response to penn nation

In other words we could end depending on the order of who finishes 6th 7th and 8th in the league to determine who ends up qualifying 4th for the tourney

It makes zero sense to depend on the result of a Cornell-Brown game on the final weekend to potentially make or break a 4th seed

 
Chip Bayers 
Postdoc
Posts: 3731
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
02-26-17 01:33 PM - Post#223758    
    In response to penn nation

I defer to Dick the Butcher in Henry VI, Pt. 2 on this topic.


 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9178

Reg: 12-02-04
02-26-17 01:38 PM - Post#223760    
    In response to Chip Bayers

I hear you but someone needs to set ivy headquarters in princeton straight

When you mention seeds the context is pretty clear-it's how they will be seeded in the tourney. If it takes lawyers to make this codified then so be it

 
TigerFan 
Masters Student
Posts: 871

Reg: 11-21-04
02-26-17 02:23 PM - Post#223765    
    In response to penn nation

Sorry to re-post this from another stream but I think the farce playing out calls for it:

I think we can go one step better next year: each school is in the tournament but they bring combined men's and women's teams. Seedings are determined by averaging each school's two team's conference rankings as determine by the average of their best and lowest scores in four computer ratings systems. Top four seeded teams must play no more than three representatives from the men's team and no fewer than two members of the women's team at any one time. Lowest four seeds must play no fewer than three members of their women's team and no more than two members of their men's team at any one time. Double or nothing ticket to the NCAA tournaments.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9178

Reg: 12-02-04
02-26-17 02:28 PM - Post#223766    
    In response to TigerFan

  • TigerFan Said:
Sorry to re-post this from another stream but I think the farce playing out calls for it:

I think we can go one step better next year: each school is in the tournament but they bring combined men's and women's teams. Seedings are determined by averaging each school's two team's conference rankings as determine by the average of their best and lowest scores in four computer ratings systems. Top four seeded teams must play no more than three representatives from the men's team and no fewer than two members of the women's team at any one time. Lowest four seeds must play no fewer than three members of their women's team and no more than two members of their men's team at any one time. Double or nothing ticket to the NCAA tournaments.



averaging the testosterone levels of each combined squad.

 
Tiger69 
PhD Student
Posts: 1984

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: Get the Lawyers Ready
02-26-17 02:31 PM - Post#223768    
    In response to westphillywarrior

If we're going to "lawyer up", let's go after the NCAA for anti-trust violations of packing their tournament with most of the Power Six instead of dividing the booty more equitably among all NCAA amateur athletic programs. Come to think of it, do we really need the NCAA? Maybe we need to form an Alt NCAA to serve members with athletes who are part of the academic purpose of the institution. Let the Power Six be the minor league for professional aspirants.

 
Tiger69 
PhD Student
Posts: 1984

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: Get the Lawyers Ready
02-26-17 02:34 PM - Post#223770    
    In response to westphillywarrior

.

Edited by Tiger69 on 02-26-17 02:35 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3069

Reg: 02-04-06
02-26-17 03:11 PM - Post#223775    
    In response to Tiger69

Glad to see that the spirit of amateurism still dominates the League, in this case among the administration.

 
Big R&B Truth 
Senior
Posts: 349
Big R&B Truth
Loc: Back Waters of New Englan...
Reg: 11-23-04
Get the Lawyers Ready
02-26-17 03:26 PM - Post#223779    
    In response to SRP

Why isn't the tie breaker the combined score of the two head to head match ups.
This puts each team in control of their own destiny and seems really simple. Typical of Ivy League admins. to make things way more complicated than they need to be.

Edited by Big R&B Truth on 02-26-17 03:30 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9178

Reg: 12-02-04
02-26-17 03:30 PM - Post#223780    
    In response to SRP

Even a non-lawyer like me is able to read the tiebreaking language and see what is clearly meant.

Everything is discussed in seeding, seeding, seeding for the tourney and what will be done to break any ties. If there are only 4 teams in the tourney, you are talking about seeds 1 through 4. There is no 6th seed in a 4 team tourney!

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9178

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Get the Lawyers Ready
02-26-17 03:32 PM - Post#223781    
    In response to Big R&B Truth

To be fair, that was never used any other year to break ties, either, when teams tied head to head.

 
Chip Bayers 
Postdoc
Posts: 3731
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
02-26-17 03:40 PM - Post#223782    
    In response to penn nation

One-game playoff for 4th seed on Wednesday before the tourney!



 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4601

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-26-17 03:44 PM - Post#223784    
    In response to Chip Bayers

I really like this idea FWIW, but if you get 3-way or 4-way ties for the final spot, doing two days of tiebreakers before a two day tourney could be a tall ask.

 
Tiger69 
PhD Student
Posts: 1984

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: Get the Lawyers Ready
02-26-17 03:46 PM - Post#223786    
    In response to penn nation

You may have noticed that a few other things have changed.

Move on.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9178

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Get the Lawyers Ready
02-26-17 03:51 PM - Post#223788    
    In response to Tiger69

Happy to sign a MoveOn petition to the Ivy President on this issue, if that's what you mean.



 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9178

Reg: 12-02-04
02-26-17 03:52 PM - Post#223789    
    In response to mrjames

But didn't you read? If Brian Earl wakes up on the wrong side of the bed Tuesday morning, or finds a seed** in his bagel, Cornell is eliminated.


** In this sole instance, seed does not refer to a 1-4 ranking in the upcoming Ivy Tourney.

 
Tiger69 
PhD Student
Posts: 1984

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: Get the Lawyers Ready
02-26-17 03:54 PM - Post#223790    
    In response to penn nation

I would hope that MoveOn is spending it's time on more substantial matters than gripes from us Ivy bball fans

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9178

Reg: 12-02-04
Get the Lawyers Ready
02-26-17 04:06 PM - Post#223791    
    In response to mrjames

Mike:

Your take on all of this? It's hard to imagine, given the tiebreaker language, that "seeding" language applies to teams outside the tourney. You seed for a tourney. The teams that make it into the tourney are seeded--they are the only seeds. We never talk about seeding in terms of how each team finishes within the league. Sure, we talk about coming in 2nd place, 4th, etc but not that this is our league seed.

Besides, what is the point of having a potential 7 vs 8 game during the last weekend determine a tourney berth? If that is what it has come down to, we might as well go back to the 14 game season.

Edited by penn nation on 02-26-17 04:07 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
westphillywarrior 
Sophomore
Posts: 130

Age: 36
Reg: 01-08-11
02-26-17 04:24 PM - Post#223794    
    In response to Chip Bayers

  • Chip Bayers Said:
One-game playoff for 4th seed on Wednesday before the tourney!





Sounds good to me. As long as it's at the Palestra.


 
umbrellaman 
Senior
Posts: 353
umbrellaman
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Get the Lawyers Ready
02-26-17 06:40 PM - Post#223795    
    In response to penn nation

Going outside the tourney teams hurts Penn but I don't think it "really really hurts" Penn. Most of the scenarios don't get there. First we're assuming a tie. If Penn and Columbia are tied and Penn didn't beat Harvard, Penn is out because they failed to beat a seeded team (Harvard) If Penn beat Harvard and Columbia lost to Yale, Columbia is out because they failed to beat a seeded team (Yale). If Penn and Columbia win out AND Yale loses to Cornell - Yale is out because they failed to beat a seeded team (Harvard).

So the scenarios we are looking at are Columbia and Penn both sweeping (and Yale winning on Friday) or both losing on Friday and winning on Saturday. This would mean both teams were tied and have the same record v. the top 3. Based on the tourney team only tiebreaker Penn would go through based on ratings.

But even here, Penn still goes through in many scenarios. Penn has a sweep of Cornell in the bank. If Columbia and Penn sweep scenario, Columbia will have swept Brown, so the winner of the Cornell-Brown game will determine which team as the higher sweep. If Cornell wins, Penn goes through.

In the second scenario, both teams will have split with Brown, so as long as Cornell remains ahead or tied with Dartmouth, Penn goes through. I am assuming if Cornell and Dartmouth are tied for 7th, both Penn and Columbia are 2-2 against them and it goes to ratings.

So the only scenarios where going to the non-tourney teams hurts Penn are 1) Penn and Columbia sweep, Yale beats Cornell and Brown beats Cornell. 2) Penn and Columbia lose Friday and win Saturday. If Dartmouth beats Princeton and Cornell does not sweep OR if Dartmouth loses to Princeton and Cornell gets swept.

So there are a couple of scenarios where Penn would need a Cornell win over Brown. More interesting is a Cornell win against Yale creates a couple of more paths for Penn to get in. Kind of makes Penn fans wish they were nicer to Brian Earl?

Edited by umbrellaman on 02-26-17 06:42 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
dperry 
Masters Student
Posts: 780
dperry
Loc: Oreland, PA
Reg: 11-24-04
Re: Get the Lawyers Ready
02-26-17 06:44 PM - Post#223796    
    In response to penn nation

  • penn nation Said:
I just read mike James Twitter feed and yes this is patently absurd

The tie breaking rules made it appear like one set of criteria would be used but now they directly replied to mikes query that ALL head to heads against ALL ivy teams are now the criteria

First this really really hurts Penn. But more importantly it does not allow any of the contending teams to directly determine their fate next weekend which does not pass the smell test

Yes bring out the lawyers



In fairness, it does maintain consistency by making the rules the same as those that were used to determine seeding in playoffs.

That being said, either they did change their minds, or else they were highly misleading in their use of the word "seed," neither of which is very cool.

I'm also going to support others in noting that we already have enough politics in the Ivies to discuss; we don't need to introduce the more conventional kind into this board as well. Keep that stuff on the off-topic board.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9178

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Get the Lawyers Ready
02-26-17 06:54 PM - Post#223799    
    In response to umbrellaman

I grant you all of this, but any scenario where a game in the final weekend, pitting a 7th place vs 8th place squad, might ultimately determine playoff eligibility has got to be scrapped in future years.


How can the Ivy League office say with a straight face that this is what it envisioned when it said "down to the lowest seed"? What possible purpose would that serve?



  • umbrellaman Said:
Going outside the tourney teams hurts Penn but I don't think it "really really hurts" Penn. Most of the scenarios don't get there. First we're assuming a tie. If Penn and Columbia are tied and Penn didn't beat Harvard, Penn is out because they failed to beat a seeded team (Harvard) If Penn beat Harvard and Columbia lost to Yale, Columbia is out because they failed to beat a seeded team (Yale). If Penn and Columbia win out AND Yale loses to Cornell - Yale is out because they failed to beat a seeded team (Harvard).

So the scenarios we are looking at are Columbia and Penn both sweeping (and Yale winning on Friday) or both losing on Friday and winning on Saturday. This would mean both teams were tied and have the same record v. the top 3. Based on the tourney team only tiebreaker Penn would go through based on ratings.

But even here, Penn still goes through in many scenarios. Penn has a sweep of Cornell in the bank. If Columbia and Penn sweep scenario, Columbia will have swept Brown, so the winner of the Cornell-Brown game will determine which team as the higher sweep. If Cornell wins, Penn goes through.

In the second scenario, both teams will have split with Brown, so as long as Cornell remains ahead or tied with Dartmouth, Penn goes through. I am assuming if Cornell and Dartmouth are tied for 7th, both Penn and Columbia are 2-2 against them and it goes to ratings.

So the only scenarios where going to the non-tourney teams hurts Penn are 1) Penn and Columbia sweep, Yale beats Cornell and Brown beats Cornell. 2) Penn and Columbia lose Friday and win Saturday. If Dartmouth beats Princeton and Cornell does not sweep OR if Dartmouth loses to Princeton and Cornell gets swept.

So there are a couple of scenarios where Penn would need a Cornell win over Brown. More interesting is a Cornell win against Yale creates a couple of more paths for Penn to get in. Kind of makes Penn fans wish they were nicer to Brian Earl?




 
Tiger69 
PhD Student
Posts: 1984

Reg: 11-23-04
02-26-17 06:59 PM - Post#223800    
    In response to penn nation

Holy smokes! All this kerfuffle over a 4th seed? Isn't this a time for a coin toss?

 
Columbia Alum 
Junior
Posts: 201

Age: 31
Reg: 11-15-11
02-26-17 07:19 PM - Post#223804    
    In response to Tiger69

This thread is way too dramatic, if you have to go down to the lower seeds, it's only because the performance of two teams are otherwise inseparable in the, at this stage it isn't some grave injustice whichever team gets picked.

Isn't it possible that Mr. James, who first explained it to all of us, misunderstood the TBs to begin with?

 
Tiger69 
PhD Student
Posts: 1984

Reg: 11-23-04
02-26-17 07:24 PM - Post#223806    
    In response to Columbia Alum

I'll be happy to donate an old Indian head penny to settle this question

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4601

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-26-17 07:30 PM - Post#223808    
    In response to Tiger69

This is on me to some extent. In my question originally, I asked if it was record versus other tournament teams combined or versus each rung in the ladder (1-seed, 2-seed, etc). I got the answer yes, which I took to mean, that it was Record versus other seeds. My "etc." screwed me, because if I had stopped at 3, they probably would have corrected me about going through 8.

Now, calling teams outside the tourney "seeded" instead of using something less confusing like "league's order of finish" that clearly distinguishes it from "seeding" in the context of the tourney would have been helpful. But this is on me for not asking the right question.

 
Columbia Alum 
Junior
Posts: 201

Age: 31
Reg: 11-15-11
02-26-17 07:33 PM - Post#223809    
    In response to mrjames

Thank you Mr. James, turns out was just a small misunderstanding on the part of you and everyone else on this board. Appreciate the clarification and for digging in the first place.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9178

Reg: 12-02-04
02-26-17 07:49 PM - Post#223811    
    In response to mrjames

You didn't do anything wrong. We shouldn't have to parse anything. And that aside, the rationale for apparently what the League wants to do makes no sense.

If Penn loses to Harvard--they don't make the tourney but at least that makes some sense.

If Penn and Columbia win out, but one of them doesn't go to the tourney because of a 7 v 8 game (even to decide who is 7 and who is 8) during the last weekend? Zero sense. You're talking about splitting hairs between two lousy teams that have nothing to play for, all to determine a playoff berth?

At least with the 3rd tiebreaker, you're looking at the overall records of the two contenders involved using a variety of metrics--that's a much more valid measure than having to stoop to the nonsense of going beyond the top 4 seeds of tiebreaker #2.



 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4127

Reg: 11-22-04
02-26-17 08:02 PM - Post#223813    
    In response to penn nation

Also, doesn't the hair splitting actually seem a little backwards? If we're breaking a tie by getting to record against the 6th or 7th team in the standings, by definition everything is even up to that point. And we know that both teams finished with the same record. So, if one team wins the tiebreaker by sweeping the 6th place team, by definition they will have dumped a game (and in the instant case perhaps even 2) to the 7th or 8th place team. That seems worse to me than splitting with the 6th place team. It makes sense to prioritize record against the top 3 - that tells you how well you play at the top of your game. But once we're down to 6th, If I was going to use HTH, I'd almost be inclined to go the other way and start from the back.

 
Chip Bayers 
Postdoc
Posts: 3731
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Get the Lawyers Ready
02-26-17 08:52 PM - Post#223817    
    In response to penn nation

  • penn nation Said:
Mike:

Your take on all of this? It's hard to imagine, given the tiebreaker language, that "seeding" language applies to teams outside the tourney. You seed for a tourney. The teams that make it into the tourney are seeded--they are the only seeds. We never talk about seeding in terms of how each team finishes within the league. Sure, we talk about coming in 2nd place, 4th, etc but not that this is our league seed.

Besides, what is the point of having a potential 7 vs 8 game during the last weekend determine a tourney berth? If that is what it has come down to, we might as well go back to the 14 game season.



This would truly be the most radical solution to avoid such patently absurd scenarios: play a 14-game round robin tournament to determine the league winner!


 
dperry 
Masters Student
Posts: 780
dperry
Loc: Oreland, PA
Reg: 11-24-04
02-26-17 08:53 PM - Post#223818    
    In response to penn nation

  • penn nation Said:
You didn't do anything wrong. We shouldn't have to parse anything.



True that; if the word "seed" hadn't been used, the confusion would not have arisen in the first place. Frankly, one could argue that you should go straight to the ratings after H2H; even beating one of the better teams is subject to some randomness (as I note in the post about the women I just made, Yale gets a big advantage for catching Penn on a bad night), plus, the ratings will take any big wins into account anyway.

  • Quote:
If Penn and Columbia win out, but one of them doesn't go to the tourney because of a 7 v 8 game (even to decide who is 7 and who is 8) during the last weekend? Zero sense. You're talking about splitting hairs between two lousy teams that have nothing to play for, all to determine a playoff berth?



Well, the people supporting the SEA did say they wanted to make more games meaningful. . .
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 3392

Reg: 11-22-04
02-27-17 10:25 AM - Post#223843    
    In response to dperry

what in the heck does SEA mean and why do you keep insisting on using it when everyone else calls it a tourney?

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15657

Reg: 11-21-04
02-27-17 10:28 AM - Post#223844    
    In response to Tiger69

As long as it's a 1909 VDB-S, I'll give up the spot

 
SecS3 
Freshman
Posts: 26

Age: 68
Reg: 03-17-16
02-27-17 11:45 AM - Post#223855    
    In response to palestra38

A 1909 VDB-S is not an Indian Head penny.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15657

Reg: 11-21-04
02-27-17 12:12 PM - Post#223859    
    In response to SecS3

Thanks---I just remember that being the Holy Grail when I had one of those dark blue coin collecting books as a kid. VDB was the designer of the Lincoln Head, I see.

I'll still take one, though.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 806

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
02-27-17 02:07 PM - Post#223872    
    In response to palestra38

Any ideas on why tournament ticket activity looks to be so weak? Many many seats left

 
dperry 
Masters Student
Posts: 780
dperry
Loc: Oreland, PA
Reg: 11-24-04
02-27-17 02:08 PM - Post#223873    
    In response to Jeff2sf

  • Jeff2sf Said:
what in the heck does SEA mean and why do you keep insisting on using it when everyone else calls it a tourney?



Season-ending abomination.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4601

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-27-17 02:11 PM - Post#223874    
    In response to dperry

My presumption is Penn fans are waiting to see if they make it (and then as the 4 or 3).

I think we are learning that people are a little more interested in their own team than the overall "festival" as it were.

 
dperry 
Masters Student
Posts: 780
dperry
Loc: Oreland, PA
Reg: 11-24-04
02-27-17 02:17 PM - Post#223875    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:
My presumption is Penn fans are waiting to see if they make it (and then as the 4 or 3).

I think we are learning that people are a little more interested in their own team than the overall "festival" as it were.



Also, most of the good seats are reserved for the participants, anyway, and the people who are really interested are also likely to have sufficient entree with their athletic departments to get those seats.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
SecS3 
Freshman
Posts: 26

Age: 68
Reg: 03-17-16
02-27-17 02:18 PM - Post#223876    
    In response to palestra38

You remember that correctly. I'd take one too. I have a 1909 VDB but not an S.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9178

Reg: 12-02-04
02-27-17 02:37 PM - Post#223879    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

It doesn't help that as of now only two of the teams are known.

 
umbrellaman 
Senior
Posts: 353
umbrellaman
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Get the Lawyers Ready
02-27-17 09:34 PM - Post#223946    
    In response to Chip Bayers

  • Chip Bayers Said:

This would truly be the most radical solution to avoid such patently absurd scenarios: play a 14-game round robin tournament to determine the league winner!




That's madness, Chip. Sheer madness. Perhaps even March Madness.

 
umbrellaman 
Senior
Posts: 353
umbrellaman
Reg: 11-21-04
02-27-17 09:56 PM - Post#223950    
    In response to SomeGuy

  • SomeGuy Said:
Also, doesn't the hair splitting actually seem a little backwards? If we're breaking a tie by getting to record against the 6th or 7th team in the standings, by definition everything is even up to that point. And we know that both teams finished with the same record. So, if one team wins the tiebreaker by sweeping the 6th place team, by definition they will have dumped a game (and in the instant case perhaps even 2) to the 7th or 8th place team. That seems worse to me than splitting with the 6th place team. It makes sense to prioritize record against the top 3 - that tells you how well you play at the top of your game. But once we're down to 6th, If I was going to use HTH, I'd almost be inclined to go the other way and start from the back.



I had the same idea as I was going through the hypotheticals - that in some scenarios, Penn would go through because two of their losses came to a last place Dartmouth. It does speak to arbitrary nature of the tiebreakers - now Penn fans might be biased towards using the ratings - and that makes sense if you are thinking about NCAA tourney performance. But I do think it's preferable to use conference play first.
Strength of victory might yield a similar outcome and involve even more "meaningless games" but seems like a more satisfying measure. (You total up the number of Ivy wins for each team you beat - if you beat them twice, you count the wins twice)

 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3256

Reg: 11-23-04
02-28-17 08:41 PM - Post#224072    
    In response to umbrellaman

I may be fun to watch Brown-Cornell which my mean little to the two teams playing, but a lot to some others. Intended consequences?

 
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