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Brown Columbia Cornell Dartmouth Harvard Penn Princeton Yale



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Username Post: Get the Lawyers Ready        (Topic#20022)
westphillywarrior 
Sophomore
Posts: 127

Age: 36
Reg: 01-08-11
02-26-17 04:24 PM - Post#223794    
    In response to Chip Bayers

  • Chip Bayers Said:
One-game playoff for 4th seed on Wednesday before the tourney!





Sounds good to me. As long as it's at the Palestra.


 
umbrellaman 
Senior
Posts: 353
umbrellaman
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Get the Lawyers Ready
02-26-17 06:40 PM - Post#223795    
    In response to penn nation

Going outside the tourney teams hurts Penn but I don't think it "really really hurts" Penn. Most of the scenarios don't get there. First we're assuming a tie. If Penn and Columbia are tied and Penn didn't beat Harvard, Penn is out because they failed to beat a seeded team (Harvard) If Penn beat Harvard and Columbia lost to Yale, Columbia is out because they failed to beat a seeded team (Yale). If Penn and Columbia win out AND Yale loses to Cornell - Yale is out because they failed to beat a seeded team (Harvard).

So the scenarios we are looking at are Columbia and Penn both sweeping (and Yale winning on Friday) or both losing on Friday and winning on Saturday. This would mean both teams were tied and have the same record v. the top 3. Based on the tourney team only tiebreaker Penn would go through based on ratings.

But even here, Penn still goes through in many scenarios. Penn has a sweep of Cornell in the bank. If Columbia and Penn sweep scenario, Columbia will have swept Brown, so the winner of the Cornell-Brown game will determine which team as the higher sweep. If Cornell wins, Penn goes through.

In the second scenario, both teams will have split with Brown, so as long as Cornell remains ahead or tied with Dartmouth, Penn goes through. I am assuming if Cornell and Dartmouth are tied for 7th, both Penn and Columbia are 2-2 against them and it goes to ratings.

So the only scenarios where going to the non-tourney teams hurts Penn are 1) Penn and Columbia sweep, Yale beats Cornell and Brown beats Cornell. 2) Penn and Columbia lose Friday and win Saturday. If Dartmouth beats Princeton and Cornell does not sweep OR if Dartmouth loses to Princeton and Cornell gets swept.

So there are a couple of scenarios where Penn would need a Cornell win over Brown. More interesting is a Cornell win against Yale creates a couple of more paths for Penn to get in. Kind of makes Penn fans wish they were nicer to Brian Earl?

Edited by umbrellaman on 02-26-17 06:42 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
dperry 
Masters Student
Posts: 780
dperry
Loc: Oreland, PA
Reg: 11-24-04
Re: Get the Lawyers Ready
02-26-17 06:44 PM - Post#223796    
    In response to penn nation

  • penn nation Said:
I just read mike James Twitter feed and yes this is patently absurd

The tie breaking rules made it appear like one set of criteria would be used but now they directly replied to mikes query that ALL head to heads against ALL ivy teams are now the criteria

First this really really hurts Penn. But more importantly it does not allow any of the contending teams to directly determine their fate next weekend which does not pass the smell test

Yes bring out the lawyers



In fairness, it does maintain consistency by making the rules the same as those that were used to determine seeding in playoffs.

That being said, either they did change their minds, or else they were highly misleading in their use of the word "seed," neither of which is very cool.

I'm also going to support others in noting that we already have enough politics in the Ivies to discuss; we don't need to introduce the more conventional kind into this board as well. Keep that stuff on the off-topic board.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9089

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Get the Lawyers Ready
02-26-17 06:54 PM - Post#223799    
    In response to umbrellaman

I grant you all of this, but any scenario where a game in the final weekend, pitting a 7th place vs 8th place squad, might ultimately determine playoff eligibility has got to be scrapped in future years.


How can the Ivy League office say with a straight face that this is what it envisioned when it said "down to the lowest seed"? What possible purpose would that serve?



  • umbrellaman Said:
Going outside the tourney teams hurts Penn but I don't think it "really really hurts" Penn. Most of the scenarios don't get there. First we're assuming a tie. If Penn and Columbia are tied and Penn didn't beat Harvard, Penn is out because they failed to beat a seeded team (Harvard) If Penn beat Harvard and Columbia lost to Yale, Columbia is out because they failed to beat a seeded team (Yale). If Penn and Columbia win out AND Yale loses to Cornell - Yale is out because they failed to beat a seeded team (Harvard).

So the scenarios we are looking at are Columbia and Penn both sweeping (and Yale winning on Friday) or both losing on Friday and winning on Saturday. This would mean both teams were tied and have the same record v. the top 3. Based on the tourney team only tiebreaker Penn would go through based on ratings.

But even here, Penn still goes through in many scenarios. Penn has a sweep of Cornell in the bank. If Columbia and Penn sweep scenario, Columbia will have swept Brown, so the winner of the Cornell-Brown game will determine which team as the higher sweep. If Cornell wins, Penn goes through.

In the second scenario, both teams will have split with Brown, so as long as Cornell remains ahead or tied with Dartmouth, Penn goes through. I am assuming if Cornell and Dartmouth are tied for 7th, both Penn and Columbia are 2-2 against them and it goes to ratings.

So the only scenarios where going to the non-tourney teams hurts Penn are 1) Penn and Columbia sweep, Yale beats Cornell and Brown beats Cornell. 2) Penn and Columbia lose Friday and win Saturday. If Dartmouth beats Princeton and Cornell does not sweep OR if Dartmouth loses to Princeton and Cornell gets swept.

So there are a couple of scenarios where Penn would need a Cornell win over Brown. More interesting is a Cornell win against Yale creates a couple of more paths for Penn to get in. Kind of makes Penn fans wish they were nicer to Brian Earl?




 
Tiger69 
PhD Student
Posts: 1966

Reg: 11-23-04
02-26-17 06:59 PM - Post#223800    
    In response to penn nation

Holy smokes! All this kerfuffle over a 4th seed? Isn't this a time for a coin toss?

 
Columbia Alum 
Junior
Posts: 201

Age: 31
Reg: 11-15-11
02-26-17 07:19 PM - Post#223804    
    In response to Tiger69

This thread is way too dramatic, if you have to go down to the lower seeds, it's only because the performance of two teams are otherwise inseparable in the, at this stage it isn't some grave injustice whichever team gets picked.

Isn't it possible that Mr. James, who first explained it to all of us, misunderstood the TBs to begin with?

 
Tiger69 
PhD Student
Posts: 1966

Reg: 11-23-04
02-26-17 07:24 PM - Post#223806    
    In response to Columbia Alum

I'll be happy to donate an old Indian head penny to settle this question

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4595

Loc: Jersey City, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-26-17 07:30 PM - Post#223808    
    In response to Tiger69

This is on me to some extent. In my question originally, I asked if it was record versus other tournament teams combined or versus each rung in the ladder (1-seed, 2-seed, etc). I got the answer yes, which I took to mean, that it was Record versus other seeds. My "etc." screwed me, because if I had stopped at 3, they probably would have corrected me about going through 8.

Now, calling teams outside the tourney "seeded" instead of using something less confusing like "league's order of finish" that clearly distinguishes it from "seeding" in the context of the tourney would have been helpful. But this is on me for not asking the right question.

 
Columbia Alum 
Junior
Posts: 201

Age: 31
Reg: 11-15-11
02-26-17 07:33 PM - Post#223809    
    In response to mrjames

Thank you Mr. James, turns out was just a small misunderstanding on the part of you and everyone else on this board. Appreciate the clarification and for digging in the first place.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9089

Reg: 12-02-04
02-26-17 07:49 PM - Post#223811    
    In response to mrjames

You didn't do anything wrong. We shouldn't have to parse anything. And that aside, the rationale for apparently what the League wants to do makes no sense.

If Penn loses to Harvard--they don't make the tourney but at least that makes some sense.

If Penn and Columbia win out, but one of them doesn't go to the tourney because of a 7 v 8 game (even to decide who is 7 and who is 8) during the last weekend? Zero sense. You're talking about splitting hairs between two lousy teams that have nothing to play for, all to determine a playoff berth?

At least with the 3rd tiebreaker, you're looking at the overall records of the two contenders involved using a variety of metrics--that's a much more valid measure than having to stoop to the nonsense of going beyond the top 4 seeds of tiebreaker #2.



 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4118

Reg: 11-22-04
02-26-17 08:02 PM - Post#223813    
    In response to penn nation

Also, doesn't the hair splitting actually seem a little backwards? If we're breaking a tie by getting to record against the 6th or 7th team in the standings, by definition everything is even up to that point. And we know that both teams finished with the same record. So, if one team wins the tiebreaker by sweeping the 6th place team, by definition they will have dumped a game (and in the instant case perhaps even 2) to the 7th or 8th place team. That seems worse to me than splitting with the 6th place team. It makes sense to prioritize record against the top 3 - that tells you how well you play at the top of your game. But once we're down to 6th, If I was going to use HTH, I'd almost be inclined to go the other way and start from the back.

 
Chip Bayers 
Postdoc
Posts: 3731
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Get the Lawyers Ready
02-26-17 08:52 PM - Post#223817    
    In response to penn nation

  • penn nation Said:
Mike:

Your take on all of this? It's hard to imagine, given the tiebreaker language, that "seeding" language applies to teams outside the tourney. You seed for a tourney. The teams that make it into the tourney are seeded--they are the only seeds. We never talk about seeding in terms of how each team finishes within the league. Sure, we talk about coming in 2nd place, 4th, etc but not that this is our league seed.

Besides, what is the point of having a potential 7 vs 8 game during the last weekend determine a tourney berth? If that is what it has come down to, we might as well go back to the 14 game season.



This would truly be the most radical solution to avoid such patently absurd scenarios: play a 14-game round robin tournament to determine the league winner!


 
dperry 
Masters Student
Posts: 780
dperry
Loc: Oreland, PA
Reg: 11-24-04
02-26-17 08:53 PM - Post#223818    
    In response to penn nation

  • penn nation Said:
You didn't do anything wrong. We shouldn't have to parse anything.



True that; if the word "seed" hadn't been used, the confusion would not have arisen in the first place. Frankly, one could argue that you should go straight to the ratings after H2H; even beating one of the better teams is subject to some randomness (as I note in the post about the women I just made, Yale gets a big advantage for catching Penn on a bad night), plus, the ratings will take any big wins into account anyway.

  • Quote:
If Penn and Columbia win out, but one of them doesn't go to the tourney because of a 7 v 8 game (even to decide who is 7 and who is 8) during the last weekend? Zero sense. You're talking about splitting hairs between two lousy teams that have nothing to play for, all to determine a playoff berth?



Well, the people supporting the SEA did say they wanted to make more games meaningful. . .
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 3390

Reg: 11-22-04
02-27-17 10:25 AM - Post#223843    
    In response to dperry

what in the heck does SEA mean and why do you keep insisting on using it when everyone else calls it a tourney?

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15550

Reg: 11-21-04
02-27-17 10:28 AM - Post#223844    
    In response to Tiger69

As long as it's a 1909 VDB-S, I'll give up the spot

 
SecS3 
Freshman
Posts: 26

Age: 68
Reg: 03-17-16
02-27-17 11:45 AM - Post#223855    
    In response to palestra38

A 1909 VDB-S is not an Indian Head penny.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15550

Reg: 11-21-04
02-27-17 12:12 PM - Post#223859    
    In response to SecS3

Thanks---I just remember that being the Holy Grail when I had one of those dark blue coin collecting books as a kid. VDB was the designer of the Lincoln Head, I see.

I'll still take one, though.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 802

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
02-27-17 02:07 PM - Post#223872    
    In response to palestra38

Any ideas on why tournament ticket activity looks to be so weak? Many many seats left

 
dperry 
Masters Student
Posts: 780
dperry
Loc: Oreland, PA
Reg: 11-24-04
02-27-17 02:08 PM - Post#223873    
    In response to Jeff2sf

  • Jeff2sf Said:
what in the heck does SEA mean and why do you keep insisting on using it when everyone else calls it a tourney?



Season-ending abomination.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4595

Loc: Jersey City, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-27-17 02:11 PM - Post#223874    
    In response to dperry

My presumption is Penn fans are waiting to see if they make it (and then as the 4 or 3).

I think we are learning that people are a little more interested in their own team than the overall "festival" as it were.

 
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