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Username Post: Tiebreak Scenarios        (Topic#20030)
rbg 
Senior
Posts: 314

Reg: 10-20-14
02-27-17 05:25 PM - Post#223905    

Jonathan Tannenwald, with some assistance from Mike James, has come up with all of the playoff results from this weekend's games.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/c ollege/...

 
Streamers 
PhD Student
Posts: 1656
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
02-27-17 06:45 PM - Post#223923    
    In response to rbg

Wow...and thanks!

 
sparman 
Masters Student
Posts: 772
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
Tiebreak Scenarios
02-27-17 09:08 PM - Post#223942    
    In response to Streamers

Maybe I'm missing it (and I'm not interested in devoting hours to figuring this out) but I don't understand how they avoid the circular problem of applying tiebreakers for, say, #4 that require looking at W-L record versus #7, when you have to apply tiebreakers to determine #7 that are partly based on W-L versus #4.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9085

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Tiebreak Scenarios
02-27-17 09:30 PM - Post#223944    
    In response to sparman

According to the tiebreaking rules, you break the ties in hierarchical order. So the #4 tie gets broken first.

 
umbrellaman 
Senior
Posts: 353
umbrellaman
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Tiebreak Scenarios
02-27-17 09:59 PM - Post#223951    
    In response to sparman

  • sparman Said:
Maybe I'm missing it (and I'm not interested in devoting hours to figuring this out) but I don't understand how they avoid the circular problem of applying tiebreakers for, say, #4 that require looking at W-L record versus #7, when you have to apply tiebreakers to determine #7 that are partly based on W-L versus #4.



Let's say you need to break 4 and 5, and 6 and 7 are also tied. You compare the combined records of 4 vs 6 and 7 vs 5 vs 6 and 7.



 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4595

Loc: Jersey City, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-27-17 10:06 PM - Post#223953    
    In response to umbrellaman

Correct. Ties are broken down the ladder so tied teams further down the standings are treated together if tied.

 
sparman 
Masters Student
Posts: 772
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
Re: Tiebreak Scenarios
02-28-17 11:24 AM - Post#224002    
    In response to umbrellaman

So this means that it's possible (theoretically; I have no idea how realistically) for the tie for #4 to have been broken with the eventual #4 having a worse record versus the ultimate #6 (after tie-breaking with #7) than #5 had versus ultimate #6?

 
Tiger69 
PhD Student
Posts: 1966

Reg: 11-23-04
02-28-17 11:31 AM - Post#224003    
    In response to sparman

In that unlikely event there will be a 2 out of 3 pie-throwing contest at Robin Harris to determine the winner of the #4 team.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9085

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Tiebreak Scenarios
02-28-17 08:04 PM - Post#224070    
    In response to sparman

In case you missed it, the saga continues.

The chachams in Princeton left yet another item ambiguous and is only being cleared up thanks to Mike James and Jonathan Tannenwald's persistent questioning. Check Mike's twitter account for this afternoon's latest. Apparently they now WILL break any ties among the 6-7-8 seeds, if necessary, before breaking a 4-5 tie.

This once again changes the calculus. No matter what happens, the Ivy folks need a complete makeover of the rules for next year. In some cases, far more clarity and precision are required. In others, the criteria themselves need to be scrapped or at minimum modified.

  • sparman Said:
So this means that it's possible (theoretically; I have no idea how realistically) for the tie for #4 to have been broken with the eventual #4 having a worse record versus the ultimate #6 (after tie-breaking with #7) than #5 had versus ultimate #6?




Edited by penn nation on 02-28-17 08:07 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
sparman 
Masters Student
Posts: 772
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
Re: Tiebreak Scenarios
02-28-17 09:04 PM - Post#224074    
    In response to penn nation

I did miss it because I'm not on twitter (I reserve right to change if elected president.)

I suppose I should be dismayed the powers that be can't get their act together, but that would presume I expected them to.

Maybe if they read these boards they would not be so far behind the curve.

At least I learned a new word (chachams), which I did not really have to look up to figure out. (Edit: so actually I mistakenly assumed it was not a term of respect.)




Edited by sparman on 02-28-17 09:13 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3057

Reg: 02-04-06
02-28-17 10:52 PM - Post#224081    
    In response to sparman

My N+1 tournament idea is starting to look like common sense by contrast now, isn't it?

 
westphillywarrior 
Sophomore
Posts: 127

Age: 36
Reg: 01-08-11
Re: Tiebreak Scenarios
02-28-17 11:18 PM - Post#224084    
    In response to penn nation

This has become a total joke.

To make sure we get this right we should get PricewaterhouseCooper to figure out the tiebreakers. They might even do it pro bono, I heard that one of their partners is a Cornell grad.

 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 2819

Age: 53
Reg: 07-07-09
03-01-17 08:46 AM - Post#224094    
    In response to Tiger69

  • Tiger69 Said:
In that unlikely event there will be a 2 out of 3 pie-throwing contest at Robin Harris to determine the winner of the #4 team.


This is the best idea yet. I'm totally on board.

But why limit it to 2 out of 3?


 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15537

Reg: 11-21-04
03-01-17 09:31 AM - Post#224098    
    In response to TheLine

Or this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZOLs03vILs

 
sparman 
Masters Student
Posts: 772
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
03-01-17 10:30 AM - Post#224102    
    In response to palestra38

The lacrosse tie breaking procedures (and maybe others) actually included a coin flip, at least a year or two ago. Don't know if they have modified this.

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4595

Loc: Jersey City, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
03-01-17 11:09 AM - Post#224109    
    In response to sparman

The basketball ones also include a coin flip. The ratings were stuffed in ahead of those to (basically) ensure that it would never get to a coin flip, because the coaches didn't want that.

 
DCAJedi 
Masters Student
Posts: 532

Age: 33
Loc: Somewhere.
Reg: 11-21-04
03-01-17 11:51 AM - Post#224117    
    In response to mrjames

For what it's worth, I've updated the playoff scenarios post a few times. It should be clearer now than it was in previous forms.

Any questions, let me know...

"Here will be an old abusing of God's patience, and the king's English."


 
SecS3 
Freshman
Posts: 26

Age: 68
Reg: 03-17-16
03-01-17 12:10 PM - Post#224121    
    In response to TheLine

You don't want to waste too many pies.

 
Streamers 
PhD Student
Posts: 1656
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
03-01-17 05:33 PM - Post#224166    
    In response to SecS3

If we can't beat Harvard, we can't beat Princeton either.

 
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