Untitled Document
Brown Columbia Cornell Dartmouth Harvard Penn Princeton Yale



 Page 3 of 5 « First<2345
Username Post: Two bids or why a tourney?        (Topic#20031)
dperry 
Postdoc
Posts: 2211
dperry
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
Re: Two bids or why a tourney?
02-28-17 11:50 PM - Post#224087    
    In response to AsiaSunset

  • AsiaSunset Said:
Not sure H,Y and P would agree that they benefit from the AI.

Since the players and the coaches seem to almost unanimously embrace a year end tournament, it seems the better approach is to let it run for a few years before reaching ironclad positions. Their opinion should hold more weight in the short term than any of ours.



Um, Asia, hate to tell you this, but one of the founding principles of the league is precisely that the inmates don't run the asylum. Again, you want to make the argument that the SEA is better for other reasons, go right ahead, but that don't cut it. I will say this, though; the only good thing about this whole thing is that it has utterly exposed the hypocrisy of not going to the football playoffs. The most class I could possible imagine being missed for that would be 6 team/weeks (2 bids, one going to the finals and the other winning in the first round). Of course, most years it would be much less. This thing is costing 8 team/weeks every year.

  • Quote:
Evolution and change appears to be an inevitable result of the human condition over time and it is happening at an increased pace with each passing year. The Ivy League has decided that trying this approach makes sense if they want to be a part of the Division 1 landscape. I happen to agree that it probably does come with the territory. After all - we all know what happened to the dinosaurs; and, modern day dinosaurs, whether in business or in sports management, seem destined to suffer a similar fate.



The Palestra is a dinosaur, too; you want to get rid of that? Again, you want to make the argument that the SEA makes the Ivy basketball experience better or more competitive, do so, but stop it with the fallacies.

  • Quote:
Personally - I feel pretty uncomfortable saying we have the right answer, when every other league, whether a power 5 league or a one bid league, have reached a different conclusion.



And again, one of the main ideas behind the entire league is that we have the right answer. You want to disagree with that, go ahead, but be careful that you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Not to mention, a quick Google search will find you plenty of neutral experts who agreed with the former approach, and some who still do. I would also caution you against believing that every conference made a thoughtful decision on this issue. There is a lot of "follow-the-leader" thinking in college athletics.

  • Quote:
So - for the moment, I embrace our giving this approach a try.



Except that the odds are very strong that it will be permanent, regardless of whether it succeeds or not. There are too many vested interests satisfied by this. While the chances of it getting reversed are probably slightly higher than in other conferences, just because the presidents can be ornery sometimes, I have no confidence that it will ever change back under any circumstances.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
dperry 
Postdoc
Posts: 2211
dperry
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
Re: Two bids or why a tourney?
03-01-17 12:43 AM - Post#224088    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:

I'll go ahead and throw out another one. For all the hand-wringing, I actually like the ILDN product. Putting it behind a paywall seems ridiculously penny-wise, pound-foolish. And if you care about recruits perceiving their ability to reach a wide audience playing for you, you want every effing game on the WatchESPN platform...



A lot of people have been complaining about the ILDN charging. My response is: you get what you pay for. Maybe I'm biased, because most of my basketball watching lately has been of the women, and perhaps other leagues don't put as much effort into them as they do into the men's broadcasts, but every time I've watched a broadcast from a middle- or lower-echelon league in the last couple of years, I've encountered at least one of the following problems, and usually several of them:

--Lousy video quality
--Lousy sound quality
--Horrible announcers (either students who don't know when to shut up, or else people who have trouble talking intelligibly, much less telling you what's going on or remembering who the players are.)
--Poor camera work (like not following the ball when it goes from one end of the court to the other) and selection (e.g., showing the game from the far end of the court for a long period of time)
--Only one camera to begin with.
--No replays, or only at half and after the game.
--No clocks (in particular, a lot of broadcasts do not have the shot clock.)
--No constant scoreboard.
--No archiving of games, which is particularly a pain given that I still haven't found good software for timed recording of video from a PC yet, and even if I did, you still have to leave the computer on the entire time you're gone.

Heck, when the women visited Duke this year, there were no announcers--on the ACC Network, for crying out loud! (Whether it was a technical problem, or whether they just didn't have them, I don't know, but either way it's pretty lame.)

I'm not saying that ILDN never has any of these problems, but they don't have them as often or for as long a time. For example, I don't think Ivy broadcasts are really HD, but the quality's usually quite good, and nowadays it rarely gets really grainy for more than a couple of minutes per game. On the Patriot League broadcasts, I'm lucky if half of the broadcast is at good quality. This is even true for Lafayette's games, which are being produced for regular TV broadcast as well as online. Of course, another reason why they charge is that they show a lot more sports than most networks. I know some of you don't care about that, but those of us who do appreciate having them available and looking halfway decent.

At the risk of uphill-both-ways old fogeyism, I'll also note that when I was living in Florida in the early 90's, my dad and I would pay $75-100 just to listen to the audio of one game over the phone--we used to have to take turns; he would listen to the first half and tell me what was going on, and I'd do the same for the second half. Compared to that, I'm perfectly happy to pay $90 for a full year of all of Penn sports, and for those of you who only watch hoops, a four-month package at $35 takes care of your needs.

As far as ESPN3 goes, while they don't have every game on yet, I'm amazed at how many they do get on, even for the women. I'll bet it's a lot more than any other league at our level. Give 228 Alexander credit for that, at least.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
dperry 
Postdoc
Posts: 2211
dperry
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
Re: Two bids or why a tourney?
03-01-17 12:50 AM - Post#224089    
    In response to Tiger69

  • Tiger69 Said:


I have only one quibble with your post above. You implied that the tourney determines the "champ". That is not my understanding nor do I believe that it is correct. The champion is still the winner of the 14 game season. The tourney winner wins only the bid. So if, for example, Columbia or Penn surprises us and wins the tourney, it receives the Bon Voyage to the Dance. But, Princeton and, possibly, Harvard is/are still the Champ(s).



While I appreciate the thought, T69, let's get real; in 25 years, no one is going to remember who finished first if they didn't also win the tournament and go to the NCAA's. That's the way is in every other conference, and that's the way it will be with us, too. I think the league is being dishonest in not recognizing that.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
dperry 
Postdoc
Posts: 2211
dperry
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
03-01-17 12:56 AM - Post#224090    
    In response to TheLine

  • TheLine Said:

I'd like to use this as an opportunity to thank the Penn alums who contributed to refurbishing The Palestra and vastly improving the training facilities. You don't get enough credit. And for all the flak we give Steve Bilsky, he deserves credit for his role.




Have to agree 100% with that. Finally got a chance to wander around the new Hutch during the league fencing championship a couple of weeks ago, and the facilities in there are just amazing, even if it was a little weird seeing swordplay where I used to go for intramural hoops. Same for Penn Park and the river fields as well. As I've said before, when I was in school around 1990, the only league school whose facilities were clearly worse overall was Columbia; now, the only schools whose facilities are clearly better are Princeton and Harvard.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Two bids or why a tourney?
03-01-17 08:02 AM - Post#224093    
    In response to dperry

Yeah, for me this comes from the fact that we were really close to a WatchESPN distribution deal that would have included some linear, I believe, much like the AmEast, Horizon and Valley have been getting. We decided to stick with our model. I don't know what the subscriber numbers look like, but given the size of the investment necessary to produce the ILDN platform, I can't imagine the subscriber fees are offsetting a huge chunk of that. And if our WatchESPN numbers are much higher than our ILDN numbers (another thing we don't have detail on), you could pretty convincingly make an argument that you'd rather sacrifice the whole cost as a marketing expense, than to try to make some of it back while keeping your investment from reaching the marginal viewer that could be impacted by our product.

I know that the fee model has been popular historically. I'm in my early 30s, but I can remember there being a beeper you could buy, which for $14.99 would send you sports scores. I can remember when they broadcast the first ESPN football game over the internet to Insider subscribers. These days, though, people pretty clearly would rather consume ad-ridden content for free than to pay to consume it.

All I'm saying is that if the league is so concerned about marketing the product, they have a potentially huge marketing tool that they're hiding behind a paywall that, even if it is generating a good amount of revenue, is basically keeping our product from extending beyond the bounds of those who already know about it.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
Two bids or why a tourney?
03-01-17 09:20 AM - Post#224097    
    In response to dperry

Harvard? Better facilities? Other than a great pool, what do they have---a broken down barn of a gym, a puddle receptor of a football stadium--maybe the most uncomfortable place to watch a game in the nation, although I admit I love the look of the place and hearing the Ten Thousand Men of Harvard (that has it all over Fight On Pennsylvania for football--Fight on is better for basketball). Anyway, until Harvard builds their new arena complex, Penn has much better athletic facilities.

 
Go Green 
PhD Student
Posts: 1124

Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: Two bids or why a tourney?
03-01-17 09:58 AM - Post#224099    
    In response to palestra38

  • palestra38 Said:
Penn has much better athletic facilities.



So long as you don't mind playing in front of empty seats, that is.


 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Two bids or why a tourney?
03-01-17 10:12 AM - Post#224100    
    In response to Go Green

With a lousy team, Penn still has led the Ivies in basketball attendance over the last 10 years.

And if the Ivies were allowed into the FCS playoffs, football attendance would increase substantially.

After all, who wants to watch a meaningless game against Dartmouth. And up in Hanover, what else is there to do other than drink?

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2801

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: Two bids or why a tourney?
03-01-17 10:31 AM - Post#224103    
    In response to dperry

If you are right, then the tourney REALLY sucks.

Why waste 14 games on a regular season? The League schedule should simply be an 8 team, three day, single elimination tournament.

Or maybe double elimination....

Or maybe home and home, 2 month, 56 game schedule schedule with all teams playing each other and the winner being the team with the best record!

Wait a minute...

 
AsiaSunset 
Postdoc
Posts: 4350

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Two bids or why a tourney?
03-01-17 10:32 AM - Post#224104    
    In response to dperry

David - Change is inevitable. Even our beloved Palestra has undergone significant change, without which it would likely be considered a fairly dumpy basketball venue whose glory days had past long ago. None of those changes, nor the ones we are discussing on this thread, threaten the principles upon which the Ivy League was founded. And - why assume those principles established 63 years ago still make sense today - something many of us are not convinced of.

Speaking of change

http://www.thedp.com/article/2017/02/penn- sprint-f...

 
Chip Bayers 
Professor
Posts: 6997
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
03-01-17 12:17 PM - Post#224122    
    In response to AsiaSunset

The most widely-accepted theory about the dinosaurs is that they lived quite happily and successfully until they were wiped out by a catastrophic event beyond their control.

We therefore should expect a cataclysmic asteroid impact on The Palestra shortly before the first semifinal tipoff next Saturday.

Although under some of the current tiebreak scenarios, in which both Penn and Columbia on Saturday could be facing opponents with no incentive to play hard (in fact, with a negative incentive to limit the minutes of their best players to avoid injury ahead of games that will actually matter to them), it might be better to hope the asteroid arrives a week early.


 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2801

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: Two bids or why a tourne
03-01-17 12:50 PM - Post#224129    
    In response to AsiaSunset

"Change is inevitable...." Reminds me of a company where I worked long ago. Every January the senior partner would convene all of us employees and give a pep talk for the coming year. I'll remember some of his speeches until I go to the grave. A few samples:

"10,000 years ago there were dinosaurs walking around where we are sitting now".

"He was a visionary. Where you or I might see just a field with a few trees and grass and flowers, he could see a full service shopping mall".

And, once he led the entire room of about 125 professionals in a chant, "We love change. Change is good!. We love change... etc.".

He believed that last one with such unqualified enthusiasm that he trotted out new management theories almost every season.

While I accepted his basic premise that one must always be open to change, some of his changes were DEFINITELY not for the good.

 
TheLine 
Professor
Posts: 5597

Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
03-01-17 12:57 PM - Post#224130    
    In response to Tiger69

Where you just see a full service shopping mall I see a field with a few trees and grass.


 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2801

Reg: 11-23-04
Two bids or why a tourney?
03-01-17 01:05 PM - Post#224131    
    In response to TheLine

As a tree hugger myself, it was very difficult to suppress my loud snort from the back of the conference room after he made that remark.




Edited by Tiger69 on 03-01-17 01:06 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
AsiaSunset 
Postdoc
Posts: 4350

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Two bids or why a tourne
03-01-17 01:15 PM - Post#224132    
    In response to Tiger69

Not all change is good, but the failure to adapt to a changing competitive landscape is almost always a death sentence. Like it or not we do exist in a competitive environment. It's called D1 basketball. We can always opt to retreat rather than compete. An example might be a move to D3.

As for Harvard not trying to win next Saturday night, we should be so blessed. There's a better chance of getting hit by that asteroid Chip referenced than that happening. But we might catch them on a downswing depending what happens to them on Friday night. And who knows what might happen to that other team from NYC. That's why there is still a little interest in Ivy basketball this weekend instead of the season having been dead for most fans weeks ago.

 
Chip Bayers 
Professor
Posts: 6997
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
03-01-17 01:15 PM - Post#224133    
    In response to Tiger69

From the age of the dinosaurs
Cars have run on gasoline
Where, where have they gone?
Now, it's nothing but flowers.

There was a factory
Now there are mountains and rivers
(You got it, you got it)

We caught a rattlesnake
Now we've got something for dinner
(You've got it,you've got it)

There was a shopping mall
Now it's all covered in flowers
(You've got it, you've got it)

...

And as things fell apart
Nobody paid much attention
(You've got it, you've got it)



 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
03-01-17 02:39 PM - Post#224141    
    In response to Chip Bayers

The anti-strategic herd-following sentiments expressed here are astounding. First of all, the Ivies, as noted by Mike, have been gaining, not falling behind, under the old no-tourney system. Other mid-majors--one-bid leagues with tourneys--have been bleeding their good teams and losing opportunities to improve. Second, the distinctive nature of Ivy basketball in sending the true champion directly to the NCAA tournament was a successful publicity point endlessly mentioned by commentators. Third, there was national coverage and discussion of key Ivy regular season games that has now vanished. We're now in the same crappy situation as poor Wichita State, which gets no recognition this year for a great conference season. A couple of days of conference tournament are not going to make up for that. (The one-game playoffs to break ties got publicity because they were irregular and exotic events of inherent drama.) Fourth, we are no longer getting the free publicity from being the clear first to name our NCAA representative. Fifth, the good players on our best teams get less recognition and discussion both within and without the league with the devalued regular season. Sixth, the only real news that come from a tourney is when what we fear happens--an inferior team upsets a good one. Even then, don't expect much--Holy Cross's epic run last season made a surprisingly small splash. Seventh, the Ivy brand is Good and Different, not "we're junior Duke or Northwestern."

Mimicry of failing competitors is insecurity, not strategy.

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 4466

Reg: 11-22-04
03-01-17 02:51 PM - Post#224142    
    In response to SRP

i'm having so much fun watching this season. more importantly, the players seem to like it and/or have supported it's implementation now and in the recent past.

get over yourselves.



 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
03-01-17 02:58 PM - Post#224143    
    In response to SRP

To be fair, it's entirely possible that the Ivies have been gaining *in spite* of not having a conf tourney, not *because* they haven't. The omitted variable is financial aid, which is clearly driving the bus on our rise in quality, not that we had a unique format for determining our bid.

I frankly think Wichita State, despite being in a bizarre bubble discussion that they objectively should not be, is a great example of how you can get way MORE publicity with a tourney than less. They are being talked about on sports radio, in national articles, and so on in a way that is much bigger than even our playoff years.

I also think that we're all forgetting that if Princeton had closed out two of their even to positive game script games in the non-conf (at VCU, Cal-N, at Monmouth), they'd be right in the think of the bubble conversation, and this would looked primed to pay off in year one.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Postdoc
Posts: 2685

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
Re: Two bids or why a tourne
03-01-17 03:37 PM - Post#224147    
    In response to AsiaSunset

Not saying Harvard players wouldn't try to win. Just wonder if Coach Amaker would play Siyani or Bryce 35 minutes. Expecting revolving playing time.

Of course they're trying to win when they're on the floor.

 
 Page 3 of 5 « First<2345
Icon Legend Permissions Topic Options
Report Post

Quote Post

Quick Reply

Print Topic

Email Topic

8612 Views





Copyright © 2004-2012 Basketball U. Terms of Use for our Site and Privacy Policy are applicable to you. All rights reserved.
Basketball U. and its subsidiaries are not affiliated in any way with any NCAA athletic conference or member institution.
FusionBB™ Version 2.1 | ©2003-2007 InteractivePHP, Inc.
Execution time: 0.227 seconds.   Total Queries: 16   Zlib Compression is on.
All times are (GMT -0500) Eastern. Current time is 07:29 AM
Top