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Username Post: Weisz/Cook -- POY Nominee        (Topic#20072)
bradley 
Masters Student
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Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
03-05-17 09:50 AM - Post#224939    

I was curious to see if Mitch would tip his hand as to the player that he would advance as POY -- Spencer or Steven. At first, I thought that it was telling that Cook was introduced after Weisz for senior night awards yet Spencer was the last guy pulled by Mitch when they were reintroduced towards the end of the game.

It is a very difficult call. Both players bring different skills to the table that mesh with the Henderson team concept. The stats are not gaudy but collectively, they were the two best players in the IL. The W/L differential between the Tigers and Harvard is one of the largest in recent league history, 4 games, and they are the most significant contributors although Stephens is very close.

Henderson's call if he is really the one that makes the call may be dependent as to who is the strongest leader -- would not want to be in his shoes.

 
1LotteryPick1969 
PhD Student
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1LotteryPick1969
Age: 67
Loc: Baltimore, Maryland
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Weisz/Cook -- POY Nominee
03-05-17 10:33 AM - Post#224952    
    In response to bradley

Based on all he has said, I would suspect he chooses Weisz.

 
Tiger81 
Freshman
Posts: 85
Tiger81
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
03-05-17 11:24 AM - Post#224963    
    In response to 1LotteryPick1969

Yes, this will be a tough one. Although I usually hate split-the-difference solutions, co-POY would reflect the reality that Princeton's success this year was inseparable from their partnership. Weisz was the unquestioned leader of the Ivy's dominant team but Cook was the league's most dangerous player who could hurt you at the rim and 3-point line, by pulling down critical rebounds and by sparking the Tigers' shutdown defense. Stephens established himself among the league's elite players at both ends of the floor but I think the nod must go to the seniors who steered and steadied this special team.

 
whitakk 
Sophomore
Posts: 146

Age: 26
Reg: 11-11-14
03-05-17 03:30 PM - Post#225042    
    In response to Tiger81

Stephens is very much in the mix, and probably had the most impact on the 14-game season.

I lean toward Cook, based on his impact throughout the full season and on both sides of the ball. But I've always struggled to figure out exactly how to value everything Weisz does.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2047

Reg: 11-23-04
03-05-17 03:37 PM - Post#225046    
    In response to whitakk

I like them all. How about all 5 as Players of the Year? Why is it necessary to single out one from the others? Teamwork is the very essence of this team's success.

 
joe nassau 
Sophomore
Posts: 115

Reg: 02-13-05
03-05-17 03:39 PM - Post#225047    
    In response to whitakk

I agree with Cook being the POY. Weisz has made a lot of solid contributions but his mistakes can be catastrophic? Last the bad pas in the VT game last year?

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3114

Reg: 02-04-06
03-05-17 04:27 PM - Post#225071    
    In response to joe nassau

Many of Weisz's best passes don't lead to an assist but get the ball to the other side of the floor and put the defense a step behind. Hard to measure that with current data capabilities. And he contributed in some important way in every game.

But if Cook got it for consistent two-way excellence and being the best overall scoring threat in the league that would be fine. It's harder to pile up stats and usage when you play with good teammates and move the ball to whomever has the best shot, so Cook had some low-scoring games.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 488

Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
03-07-17 02:42 PM - Post#225426    
    In response to whitakk

As to Weisz, if you look at his stats -- FG%, 3pt FG%, FT% and scoring average has declined over the past two years. His rebounding, assists, assists/TOs and steals have improved over the past two years. As per Coach Henderson, he may be the least athletic guy on the team and he plays power forward at 6'4". He was a two star recruit, local kid, who started from Day 1.

He is the first Tiger player to have over 1,000 pts, 500 rebounds, 300 assists and 200 3 pointers yet he is not a statistics accumulator as he is a leader by example as to being unselfish and the ultimate team player. Of all the IL players, you could make an argument in a pick up game that you would want Weisz and Chambers as the two opposing captains as they fit the description of winners.

He is simply one of those basketball guys that you cannot measure by stats alone, body type and vertical leap. As Cook and him were walking off the court Saturday night, you could see a smile on his face as to what they have accomplished as being the best in the IL. It would be absolutely understandable and justified if Henderson puts Weisz up for POY vs. Cook --- simply brutal choice.

 
JadwinGeorge 
Sophomore
Posts: 190

Age: 69
Reg: 12-04-15
03-07-17 04:50 PM - Post#225447    
    In response to bradley

I think Cook punched his POY ticket with the 30 point effort against Harvard. Cook, Weisz and Stephens are all first team All-Ivy players, while Cannady is a second teamer. Stephens is DPOY. Henderson is COY. ROY---toughest call but I think Towns gets it based on play during the Ivy season. He is a future POY for sure.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3114

Reg: 02-04-06
03-07-17 07:08 PM - Post#225465    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

While not at all a candidate for POY (or probably first-team all Ivy although you could stretch to make a case), I think that Devin Cannady deserves a ton of credit for how he subordinated some of his instincts in taking over as PG and in improving his defensive play while still exploding offensively at critical junctures.

You could see last year (and early this year) that he is a natural play-loose-and-have-fun kind of guy, back when the Tigers were playing faster and he didn't have to be the PG. It must be hard not to gun when you know that maybe every other night you could get hot and pile up the points. Imagine the usage rate he would have if he played for Penn or Dartmouth. But that would have screwed up the winning formula the Tigers discovered around the Bucknell game, creating too many fast-break opportunities for opponents while probably lowering offensive efficiency, given the scoring and passing ability of the whole team. Cannady did a great job of making his talent flow into the stream of what Princeton was trying to do.

 
Tiger84 
Freshman
Posts: 11

Age: 55
Reg: 03-06-17
03-07-17 08:02 PM - Post#225474    
    In response to SRP

I went into the last weekend thinking Stephens for POTY, but I think Cook just did too much against Harvard (both games) not to give it to him. That despite scoring zero points at the Palestra earlier this year.

If Cook shares the honor with Weisz or Stephens, all good by me.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2047

Reg: 11-23-04
03-07-17 09:18 PM - Post#225486    
    In response to Tiger84

Choosing between these players is a problem everyone would like to have Plus, we shouldn't forget what a fine comeback Amir Bell had once the IL schedule kicked in. We'll miss Cook, Weisz and Miller next season. But, we have a great base on which to build. With a strong class coming in, and a hungry, talented bench from this season, Harvard better not take anything for granted next season. If it's possible to predict anything this soon, we should be right back on or near the top in 2018-19.

 
Tiger84 
Freshman
Posts: 11

Age: 55
Reg: 03-06-17
03-07-17 09:24 PM - Post#225490    
    In response to Tiger69

Cannady, Stephens and Bell is a good base to start with. Brennan and Young can add some depth. But to stay in the top tier,
(a) Gladson is going to have to shoot better and get more into the rhythm of the offense; and
(b) one of the incoming freshmen (Desrosiers? Much?) will need to make an immediate impact.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2047

Reg: 11-23-04
03-07-17 11:36 PM - Post#225508    
    In response to Tiger84

Given past experiences, the strength of the coaching and our recent focus on defense, I will not be surprised by anything. I expect us to qualify for the stupid tournament.

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
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Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
03-08-17 08:11 AM - Post#225519    
    In response to Tiger69

I'd be stunned if Weisz isn't POY. Cook's been great, but I just feel like Weisz is where the votes will go.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 488

Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
03-08-17 08:33 AM - Post#225521    
    In response to Tiger69

I like the optimism but the reality is that the Tigers have a 50/50 chance of winning the IL Tournament. Penn will probably not be an easy out playing at the Palestra with their improved play vs. game 6 of the season. Even with Spring Break, it will still be a Penn crowd but more importantly, the Penn players are familiar with every inch of the court and more importantly, the rims. I am going with a friend to the ACC tournament in Brooklyn this evening and he had a few chuckles at my expense that Princeton is playing an away game on Saturday.

If they get by Penn, the winner of the other game will be a competitive game for sure. Nothing is ever easy particularly in post-season tournaments.

The Tigers are athletic, experienced and skilled which is a big plus. Let's hope that the Basketball Gods are kind. Hopefully, Weisz/Cook are enjoying victory vs. laying on the floor wondering why 2017 was their senior year in the IL.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4171

Reg: 11-22-04
03-08-17 09:38 AM - Post#225526    
    In response to bradley

The problem Princeton presents for us is having 4 guys (Weisz, Cook, Stephens, Bell) who present a size challenge with guard skills. If we play 2 of Donahue, Foreman, and Goodman at a time, somebody will be guarding a bigger guy. If we play both Brodeur and Rothschild, we fix the size issue but then have a speed issue where a big has to chase guys away from the basket. So even without Brase and Caruso, to me Princeton's biggest advantage is depth, in the sense that you have 5 different guys (adding Cannady to the 4 I mentioned above) who could go off and carry you. At Jadwin, we took out Cook and Weisz, so Cannady and Bell killed us. At the Palestra, we still stopped Cook, and put the clamps on Cannady and Bell. So Weisz and Stephens killed us. We kind of pick our poison.

 
Tiger81 
Freshman
Posts: 85
Tiger81
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
03-08-17 10:02 AM - Post#225534    
    In response to SomeGuy

You have nicely captured Princeton's "secret sauce" this year: many ways to win because 2-3 of their 5 scoring threats have been able to lead their offense even when 3-balls have not been falling. And when the long balls have been on target and more than 2-3 of their studs have had good games then the Tigers have won comfortably.

The constants have been defense, forcing turnovers and sticking with their game plan even when they are behind or it gets to crunch time.

For Penn to win they will need to present more offensive problems than they did in the two previous P-P meetings, hope Princeton has a poor shooting game and probably create foul/depth challenges that the Tigers have managed to avoid so far this season. Princeton has won several close games this year where they did not play their best but if they play with the urgency and tenacity they have shown over the past few weeks I like their chances.

 
westphillywarrior 
Sophomore
Posts: 138

Age: 36
Reg: 01-08-11
03-08-17 01:09 PM - Post#225594    
    In response to Tiger81

You can analyze the strategies, the match ups, etc. all you want but the end of this story was written a year ago.

This was my post from 3/10/16:

"Here's the reason to be optimistic: All we have to do next year is finish fourth in the league and then win two games in the Palestra."

I don't think we win this one at Jadwin and I don't think we win this one on a neutral court. We are going to win this one at the Palestra.

Princeton is a terrific team. I wish them luck in the NIT.

 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1045

Reg: 02-15-15
03-08-17 01:27 PM - Post#225598    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:
I'd be stunned if Weisz isn't POY. Cook's been great, but I just feel like Weisz is where the votes will go.



I think "stunned" given the choice beetween Cook and Weisz (and Stephens) is overly dramatic. I wouldn't be anything close to stunned to see any of these three win it.

I don't know the exact process but I though each coach has to nominate his players that are up for consideration? If that's the case I would expect Mitch to nominate the player/players he believes should be POY and the coaches will vote for that player. Whomever Mitch nominates would be the likely winner. He could nominate Weisz and Cook but then runs a bit of a risk of diluting those two to the benefit of a Boudreaux.

Again, I don't have any insight into the process just going off what I know from history.


 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2047

Reg: 11-23-04
03-08-17 01:29 PM - Post#225600    
    In response to westphillywarrior

Frankly, if we lose in the Palestra, I couldn't care less about the NIT. Of course, that is the players' decision to make. I will applaud them, however, if they tell the NIT that they have better ways to spend their time.

But, we are getting ahead of ourselves. GO TIGERS! Win the stupid tourney for the bid you completely deserve!



 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 488

Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
03-08-17 02:31 PM - Post#225617    
    In response to westphillywarrior

  • westphillywarrior Said:

This was my post from 3/10/16:

"Here's the reason to be optimistic: All we have to do next year is finish fourth in the league and then win two games in the Palestra."

I don't think we win this one at Jadwin and I don't think we win this one on a neutral court. We are going to win this one at the Palestra.





The Ivy League -- excellence, achievement, strive to be the best you can be ... and then we have your comments, which may turn out to be true, along with the brilliant concept and tournament structure of the IL Championship.

The next Tiger basketball game that I will attend or watch will be the 1st round of the NCAA Tournament or NIT Tournament. It will certainly not be this weekend. Thanks for sharing!

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3114

Reg: 02-04-06
03-08-17 03:43 PM - Post#225632    
    In response to bradley

Given their recent successes at the Palestra, I expect the Tigers to be confident for the semifinal game and comfy on the court, hopefully not tight because of the stakes. The refs and Penn's motivation are where the HCA may play out.

We anti-tourney folks have been harping on the unfairness of the low seed having HCA. It's a strong debating point, since nobody thinks that's a good thing. But the real danger is the next game, probably against Harvard, whom Princeton nipped at the end twice (albeit with superior game control).

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2047

Reg: 11-23-04
03-08-17 03:54 PM - Post#225637    
    In response to SRP

Agreed. I'm more concerned about Harvard at this point. We certainly won't be taking Penn lightly, though.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 261

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
03-08-17 03:59 PM - Post#225641    
    In response to Tiger69

  • Tiger69 Said:
I will applaud them, however, if they tell the NIT that they have better ways to spend their time.






A handful of teams have indeed done this. Pretty much all of them got laughed at by the rest of the world.

Trust me--you *do* want Princeton to take the NIT invitation if someone knocks them off this weekend.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2047

Reg: 11-23-04
Weisz/Cook -- POY Nominee
03-08-17 04:04 PM - Post#225644    
    In response to Go Green

Other than a little more play for the seniors and practice for the underclassmen, why? These are bright guys. If they think they have better things to do, they should. Why do we care what others might think?

Best option though: We never have to face that decision.

Edited by Tiger69 on 03-08-17 04:06 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 261

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: Weisz/Cook -- POY Nominee
03-08-17 04:52 PM - Post#225663    
    In response to Tiger69

  • Tiger69 Said:
Other than a little more play for the seniors and practice for the underclassmen, why?



Here are some reasons

http://georgetownvoice.com/2002/03/14/the-season s-...

  • Tiger69 Said:


Best option though: We never have to face that decision.



No argument here. Good luck!

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2047

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: Weisz/Cook -- POY Nominee
03-08-17 05:01 PM - Post#225670    
    In response to Go Green

Thanks for the attachment. Ironically, after reading it, I think that Georgetown and Escherick (?) made the correct decision. The coach owes everything to the concerns of his players and nothing to fans or other teams in the tournament. This is college, not professional sports.

 
sparman 
Masters Student
Posts: 787
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
Re: Weisz/Cook -- POY Nominee
03-08-17 05:41 PM - Post#225687    
    In response to Tiger69

I'll watch the NIT if it comes to that, but I have always found Go Green's repetitive arguments on this issue to be way off base.

I suppose if we never sniffed the top division in the Ivies I might feel differently. But we do, and I don't.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3114

Reg: 02-04-06
03-08-17 07:20 PM - Post#225713    
    In response to sparman

I had fun watching the NIT games last year. I'd imagine they're pretty fun for the players, too, and especially for a team that feels like they've finally got the car running the way they want it, a few more spins on a twisty country road might be very satisfying.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 488

Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: Weisz/Cook -- POY Nominee
03-08-17 07:42 PM - Post#225718    
    In response to Tiger69

Gotta play in the NIT. Right thing to do. They may play deep into the NIT.

 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1045

Reg: 02-15-15
03-08-17 08:21 PM - Post#225731    
    In response to bradley

That's it guys, embrace the NIT, visualize it, anticipate it, it's the right thing to do!

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 488

Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
03-08-17 08:30 PM - Post#225734    
    In response to PennFan10

Another way to think about it if penn loses, they might get a bid to the greater Philadelphia YMCA tourney.

 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3274

Reg: 11-23-04
03-08-17 09:36 PM - Post#225764    
    In response to bradley

Going back to the title of this thread, forget the stats arguments, Weisz is the oil in the P'ton engine. He deserves all the accolades he gets.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 261

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: Weisz/Cook -- POY Nominee
03-09-17 10:49 AM - Post#225854    
    In response to Tiger69

  • Tiger69 Said:
Thanks for the attachment. Ironically, after reading it, I think that Georgetown and Escherick (?) made the correct decision. The coach owes everything to the concerns of his players and nothing to fans or other teams in the tournament. This is college, not professional sports.



I understand where you're coming from. But there guess here is that Esherick probably regretted the decision. As the article indicated, some of the Georgetown faithful was unhappy with the decision. They did go to the NIT the following year (Esherick didn't want to repeat the mistake?), but missed the postseason entirely the year after.

And then JTIII came on board.

Nice guys finish last?

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 488

Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
04-01-17 09:33 PM - Post#228434    
    In response to Tiger84

Very cool to see Cook honored at Final Four with 19 other players for Community Service. He will be playing BB somewhere next year at a high level. He will be missed!!

 
westcoast 
Freshman
Posts: 49

Reg: 03-08-16
08-03-17 06:51 PM - Post#231600    
    In response to PennFan10

Both Cook and Weisz will be playing professionally overseas next year. Cook will play for BC Tartu in Estonia:
http://www.goprincetontigers.com/news/2017/7/29/me...

Weisz will play for Gilboa Galil in Israel - http://www.sportando.com/en/europe/israel/2433 19/s...

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 488

Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
08-03-17 10:20 PM - Post#231614    
    In response to westcoast

It will be interesting to see how Cook and Weisz compete at the next level. Weisz will be playing with Zach LeDay from Virginia Tech who killed the Tigers in NIT play plus a very talented but erractic former St. John's player. Cook certainly has the advantage regarding the measurables but Weisz is Weisz.

Bray has done well overseas and will be playing at the highest level in Greece this upcoming season although he was injured most of last year. Of the three, I always thought that Cook may rise to the top but time will tell. Hummer performed well last year as well.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2047

Reg: 11-23-04
08-04-17 04:52 AM - Post#231616    
    In response to bradley

Is Kareem Maddox playing in Europe? Of the many fine players who have graduated in the past 10 years, he seemed to me to have the greatest pro potential based on his late development in his junior and senior years.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 488

Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
08-04-17 09:42 AM - Post#231626    
    In response to Tiger69

He played well last year in the top Polish league. He actually attempted a fair number of 3 pt shots and shot 36%. He was always a very good defender with length.

Maddox and Hummer were never great shooters from the outside and they were not tall enough to play the power forward position. Cook has an advantage of being able to play the #2 guard position although he does not have great one on one skills but he definitely has an upside.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2047

Reg: 11-23-04
08-04-17 09:57 AM - Post#231627    
    In response to bradley

Thanks for the update.

 
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