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Username Post: League Nightmare        (Topic#20100)
Chet Forte 
PhD Student
Posts: 1777

Reg: 03-02-08
03-09-17 10:48 AM - Post#225853    

The IL made a monumental mistake in using the Palestra for the initial tournament. It means that a very mediocre Penn team with a losing record gets to play a home game against an undefeated Princeton team, which, and we all know based upon our first game against Princeton, can be beaten. We all know how worked up the Penn fans are going to be. We also know how it is very tough for any visiting team to play 5 versus 8 at the Palestra. So Penn may very well upset Princeton. If that happens, Princeton will not get a second bid and it will be a footnote to history.


 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 253

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
03-09-17 11:06 AM - Post#225860    
    In response to Chet Forte


May I respectfully suggest that the "nightmare" scenario is really an undefeated Princeton playing a strong #2 Penn seed? In that case, the HCA could very well be the difference in the came even if Princeton plays well.

Princeton *should* beat this Penn team. If they blow it, it will be because they played like crap, and not because of HCA.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15526

Reg: 11-21-04
03-09-17 11:15 AM - Post#225864    
    In response to Go Green

The reason they used the Palestra is pretty obvious--they have an ESPN 2 Selection Sunday final and wanted it to be someplace that they can take some pride in.

Next year it's likely to be in a different place, especially if Penn upsets Princeton, but given the time frame in planning this and obtaining TV coverage, there was no other place to play.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 802

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
03-09-17 11:19 AM - Post#225866    
    In response to Go Green

In the event Princeton wins Saturday, I wonder if Harvard/Yale could entice the returning students to fill the stands and root against Princeton? Free Pizza?

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 253

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
03-09-17 11:19 AM - Post#225867    
    In response to palestra38


Anyone who cares about my opinion, I love the Palestra and would be fine with it being the permanent location of the Ivy tournament.

Should be a good weekend!

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 253

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
03-09-17 11:26 AM - Post#225868    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:
In the event Princeton wins Saturday, I wonder if Harvard/Yale could entice the returning students to fill the stands and root against Princeton? Free Pizza?



That's pretty much what Bucknell did for the Northern Iowa students/band after they got eliminated and Bucknell was about to play Kansas in the next game.

It worked.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15526

Reg: 11-21-04
03-09-17 11:27 AM - Post#225869    
    In response to Go Green

Well, other than my ongoing belief that we need to send our best team to the Tournament and that a playoff takes away from that goal (I would feel differently if I thought there was any chance of a 2nd bid, but I don't think there is any such chance), I agree with you. But if Penn knocks off Princeton, you have to think there will be a clamor to play in a neutral site.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15526

Reg: 11-21-04
03-09-17 11:30 AM - Post#225870    
    In response to Go Green

I don't know if Northern Iowa students have the same capacity as, say Penn students, to take over a bar and order bottle service.

http://www.phillymag.com/articles/penn-parties -pho...

Don't know if Pizza will get it done.

Then again, Penn students aren't going to be there no matter what....we alums can more easily be bribed to watch basketball. Hell, I went to the Harvard-Yale playoff game at the Palestra a couple of years ago.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 253

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
03-09-17 11:33 AM - Post#225872    
    In response to palestra38

  • palestra38 Said:
I don't know if Northern Iowa students have the same capacity as, say Penn students, to take over a bar and order bottle service.

http://www.phillymag.com/articles/penn-parties -pho...

Don't know if Pizza will get it done.




Sounds like the movie "The Social Network" really changed things for Ivy parties.


 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 2816

Age: 53
Reg: 07-07-09
League Nightmare
03-09-17 11:34 AM - Post#225873    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

I agree with Go Green and P38. Princeton knows how to win at the Palestra, they do it with regularity.

The Palestra was an obvious place to play the initial tournament, it's the flagship basketball arena of the league. It's unfortunate that a below .500 Penn team will wind up getting home court advantage, but the alternatives were :

1) Split the women's and man's finals. But the league didn't want to do that.

2) Play at the home court of the top seed. But which top seed, the men's or women's? What if the top seed's home arena isn't big enough to host?

3) Host at generic available decent size arena. The one in Bridgeport, CT was one option offered up in a separate thread. Issues are that a) limited charm in having the initial tournament not on/near one of the campuses; b) unclear what attendance will be, the Palestra will look good for TV regardless.

4) Don't have a tournament because 'fair' would have the winner of the regular season go to the tournament.

I'm guessing if this tournament is a success then the league is going to have to figure out how to make option 3) work.


 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 802

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
03-09-17 11:48 AM - Post#225880    
    In response to TheLine

I'm still pulling for Mohegan Sun Arena!

Filled with bars, restaurants, pedestrian space, convention halls and even free parking. All INSIDE! Temps range from high of 33 to low of 17 degrees Saturday in Philly!



 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15526

Reg: 11-21-04
League Nightmare
03-09-17 11:49 AM - Post#225882    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Luckily, they are playing indoors. It's not as though the streets of Philadelphia will be anything like those faced by Mark Wahlberg in "The Martian" as people head out to restaurants and bars after the game.

Edited by palestra38 on 03-09-17 11:51 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 802

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
03-09-17 11:51 AM - Post#225883    
    In response to palestra38

Yes, but parking is not good around the Palestra. Walked 15 minutes in similar weather last weekend.

Any suggestions on parking for this weekend?

 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 2816

Age: 53
Reg: 07-07-09
03-09-17 12:02 PM - Post#225885    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

By the tennis court, if that's an option. It's a bit tricky to find though.

If not then there are parking facilities not far away - 34th St above Chestnut or the one across from Franklin Field on South St.


 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15526

Reg: 11-21-04
03-09-17 12:06 PM - Post#225887    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Yes, but don't tell anyone I told you this.

On the Walnut Street Bridge, between 30th and 33rd Streets, there are 12 hour meters for $5. Get a street spot, and you can walk into the Palestra from the rear entrance by descending the staircase at 32nd Street.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 802

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
03-09-17 12:08 PM - Post#225888    
    In response to palestra38

Thanks.

 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 2816

Age: 53
Reg: 07-07-09
League Nightmare
03-09-17 12:18 PM - Post#225893    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

The tennis center option - which works well for Friday and Saturday night games after the tennis center is closed but not so well during the day : make right off Chestnut onto 31st St, which leads you to lower Walnut St. Make right and left. Or make left to lot by the new fields. You then need to take the walk bridge at the far side of the tennis center.

Don't tell anyone I gave you this tip.


 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 802

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
03-09-17 12:22 PM - Post#225894    
    In response to TheLine

I think I parked there last Sat night. Lot said all day parking for $13 and everyone was paying it. I parked on the adjacent street for $2.25 (MAX thru 8pm) and tried to advise others waiting in line to pay to do the same. Windy walk to Will Call up steps on Walnut.

 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 2816

Age: 53
Reg: 07-07-09
03-09-17 12:28 PM - Post#225895    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

I used to park in the tennis center lot for free right by the base of the walk bridge - but that only ever works for low attendance games. So it won't apply this coming weekend.


 
LionFan 
Senior
Posts: 370

Reg: 11-07-06
03-10-17 01:05 PM - Post#226081    
    In response to TheLine

Rather than a nightmare, I think the league should be overjoyed its first round games feature its top rivalries. What's better in the Ivies than Penn-Princeton and Harvard-Yale? (After Columbia versus anyone, I mean.)

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 802

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
03-10-17 03:11 PM - Post#226126    
    In response to LionFan

Except that thousands of tix are still available for both days.

 
westphillywarrior 
Sophomore
Posts: 127

Age: 36
Reg: 01-08-11
Re: League Nightmare
03-10-17 03:19 PM - Post#226129    
    In response to TheLine

  • TheLine Said:
I agree with Go Green and P38. Princeton knows how to win at the Palestra, they do it with regularity.

The Palestra was an obvious place to play the initial tournament, it's the flagship basketball arena of the league. It's unfortunate that a below .500 Penn team will wind up getting home court advantage, but the alternatives were :

1) Split the women's and man's finals. But the league didn't want to do that.

2) Play at the home court of the top seed. But which top seed, the men's or women's? What if the top seed's home arena isn't big enough to host?

3) Host at generic available decent size arena. The one in Bridgeport, CT was one option offered up in a separate thread. Issues are that a) limited charm in having the initial tournament not on/near one of the campuses; b) unclear what attendance will be, the Palestra will look good for TV regardless.

4) Don't have a tournament because 'fair' would have the winner of the regular season go to the tournament.

I'm guessing if this tournament is a success then the league is going to have to figure out how to make option 3) work.




You didn't list the best option.

Play the semi-final games on the higher seeded team home court for both the men and the women. These games would reward the top two finishers with a home game. Would be played in the middle of the week.

And find a suitable decent sized neutral arena for a championship men's and women's doubleheader Saturday or Sunday.


 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 253

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: League Nightmare
03-17-17 03:28 PM - Post#227492    
    In response to westphillywarrior

  • westphillywarrior Said:

You didn't list the best option.

Play the semi-final games on the higher seeded team home court for both the men and the women. These games would reward the top two finishers with a home game. Would be played in the middle of the week.

And find a suitable decent sized neutral arena for a championship men's and women's doubleheader Saturday or Sunday.




Tall order to expect students/fans to rush to a neutral venue with only a few days' notice.

Relatedly, it kind of defeats the "we want to bring the league together" idea. With both semis and the finals at one venue, you potentially could have the teams from all eight schools in one place.

 
Chet Forte 
PhD Student
Posts: 1777

Reg: 03-02-08
03-17-17 03:54 PM - Post#227497    
    In response to Go Green

I think having the tournament at the Palestra is going to be an argument that Penn will use in recruiting. I think it gives them an unfair recruiting edge. The two highest seeds should host the first game. The highest seed survivor should host the final.


 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 253

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
03-17-17 04:20 PM - Post#227503    
    In response to Chet Forte

  • Chet Forte Said:
I The two highest seeds should host the first game. The highest seed survivor should host the final.



Again, the men's and women's tournaments are expected to be held at the same venue.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3056

Reg: 02-04-06
03-17-17 10:13 PM - Post#227518    
    In response to Go Green

That's not set in stone. It was a stupid Harris talking point but there isn't much call for it.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 253

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
03-18-17 09:11 AM - Post#227532    
    In response to SRP

  • SRP Said:
That's not set in stone. It was a stupid Harris talking point but there isn't much call for it.



Fair enough that it’s not set in stone.

But for the time being, it appears to be one of the parameters that we have to work with. So it may make sense to take it into account when voicing an opinion about what to do with the tournament next year.

It’s like guys on the football board giving dire warnings that the Ivy is headed to D-III without giving any indication that they know about the Dayton Rule.


 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 802

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
03-18-17 05:26 PM - Post#227571    
    In response to Go Green

I believe Ms. Harris also said the Penn banners would come down and that the Palestra would look totally different in an effort to remove the home court advantage. Didn't happen.

This is a basketball tournament. It is explicitly NOT to determine the league champ. It is only to select the NCAA representative. It is NOT a carnival or league wide social event. Other than an ice sculpture, there was nothing outside of the basketball game and extended courtside awards. A basketball tournament to choose a winner first and foremost has to have competitive integrity and a home court advantage and travel discrepancy for players, students, families and fans destroys that.

 
SecS3 
Freshman
Posts: 26

Age: 68
Reg: 03-17-16
03-18-17 05:38 PM - Post#227574    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Yeah, I got a big laugh out of her saying they did everything they could to make it look like a neutral court. I guess covering the red and blue P at center court fooled everyone into thinking they weren't in Philadelphia any more.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3056

Reg: 02-04-06
03-19-17 01:47 PM - Post#227699    
    In response to SecS3

I wondered about the banners business. Where did Harris get the idea that they were coming down?

 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 960

Reg: 02-15-15
03-19-17 03:10 PM - Post#227722    
    In response to SRP

  • SRP Said:
That's not set in stone. It was a stupid Harris talking point but there isn't much call for it.



It's not Robin Harris' idea. She is spokesperson for the President's and AD's and in every interview she has said holding both tournaments at the same venue was a priority. May not be set in stone but it's also not a "stupid Harris talking point". She didn't make it up. It's clearly a priority by the decision makers.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 253

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
03-23-17 11:52 AM - Post#227974    
    In response to PennFan10


Anyone who wants to cling to the fiction that Mitch Henderson was on his knees thanking God after the first round game for avoiding the nightmare of losing to Penn at the Palestra… that’s not what was on his mind.

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/ india...


 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3056

Reg: 02-04-06
03-23-17 01:08 PM - Post#227986    
    In response to Go Green

Kind of a strained link to the issue of the tourney. More appropriate in the thread on the Princeton board about MH's future--as an Indiana native he could be technically considered a candidate for the IU job among the Dakich faction that wants an Indiana guy for the job.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 253

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
03-23-17 01:19 PM - Post#227988    
    In response to SRP

  • SRP Said:
Kind of a strained link to the issue of the tourney.



I won't argue too much with that.

But I am amused by the impression some guys have left that MH was dry-heaving in the locker room after the Penn game because the unfairness of having to play the game at the Palestra was too much to bear.




 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3056

Reg: 02-04-06
03-23-17 05:11 PM - Post#228030    
    In response to Go Green

The fact that MH doesn't have to sweat getting to the NCAAa is one of the perquisites of his (and most Ivy) jobs. Along with other job characteristics, it makes up somewhat for the lower salary. (And it's another reason why the committee will never give an at-large bid to a second Ivy when a coach in another conference who needs the bid to keep his job can be rewarded instead.)

 
Chet Forte 
PhD Student
Posts: 1777

Reg: 03-02-08
03-23-17 09:15 PM - Post#228051    
    In response to SRP

MH is an obvious choice for the Georgetown gig, at a million plus.


 
Chet Forte 
PhD Student
Posts: 1777

Reg: 03-02-08
03-23-17 09:16 PM - Post#228052    
    In response to Chet Forte

Although Imhave heard that Amaker's name is in the mix. He would be looking at 1.5 or more.


 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3056

Reg: 02-04-06
03-23-17 09:42 PM - Post#228053    
    In response to Chet Forte

Considering that Princeton ended up 10 spots ahead of Georgetown on KenPom, that wouldn't be crazy, but the G'Town fans would burn down the athletics building if they tried anything like that. They want to move away from the whole "Ivy" and "Princeton" image.

 
Tiger69 
PhD Student
Posts: 1964

Reg: 11-23-04
03-25-17 08:42 PM - Post#228132    
    In response to Chet Forte

Perhaps. The money would, I'm sure, be very tempting. But, a plus in Ivy coaching, especially for Mitch, is that you don't have to kiss a$$. The players don't have an entitlement ego, as they have more reason to be there than simply to fulfill the jock dream of going NBA. The coaches have a great deal more to offer prospects than simply playing time. And, in Mitch's case, he has been an Ivy star and understands the many demands that his players must face off the court.

When an Ivy coach moves up to a power conference the pressures for immediate success increase exponentially as well as the egos of the players.

 
Chet Forte 
PhD Student
Posts: 1777

Reg: 03-02-08
03-26-17 11:19 AM - Post#228145    
    In response to Tiger69

I was astonished to read that JTIII was making 3.6 million a year. Of course that's only half of the 7.2 that Duke is paying Coach K.


 
Tiger69 
PhD Student
Posts: 1964

Reg: 11-23-04
03-26-17 12:21 PM - Post#228150    
    In response to Chet Forte

I hope that JT III is relieved to have his life back with enough cash in the bank to do whatever he chooses.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15526

Reg: 11-21-04
03-26-17 01:14 PM - Post#228153    
    In response to Tiger69

Maybe he'll have enough to come live with you on the shores of the Sea of Cortez!

 
Tiger69 
PhD Student
Posts: 1964

Reg: 11-23-04
03-26-17 02:40 PM - Post#228155    
    In response to palestra38

Asi lo espero, pero, !lastima! volvere en Los Estados Unidos miercoles.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15526

Reg: 11-21-04
03-26-17 03:46 PM - Post#228160    
    In response to Tiger69

Are you sure they'll allow you in? Guys who live most of the year in Mexico are threats to take our jobs and run away with our women.

 
Tiger69 
PhD Student
Posts: 1964

Reg: 11-23-04
League Nightmare
03-26-17 05:53 PM - Post#228172    
    In response to palestra38

I've been trying my best with the women ... ... and I am definitely NOT going to take away anyone's job!

 
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