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Username Post: Yale        (Topic#20114)
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2004

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: Yale
03-21-17 01:29 AM - Post#227841    
    In response to Go Green

Ha! And, really, just how interested are you in this Ivy "showcase"? I surrender. You are stuck on the Palestra and won't listen to any improvements on this year's flop.

You can go back and blow some more smoke up the NCAA's butt.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 261

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: Yale
03-21-17 06:14 AM - Post#227842    
    In response to Tiger69

  • Tiger69 Said:
You are stuck on the Palestra and won't listen to any improvements on this year's flop.





So you don't believe me when I said "come up with a better neutral venue and I'm on board" yesterday?



 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 261

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
Yale
03-21-17 06:16 AM - Post#227843    
    In response to bradley

  • bradley Said:
As you may remember, Pomeroy urged the IL to move the game just prior to this year's Tournament on an emergency basis.

The Committee is in a very tough situation whether you want to believe it or not.



Feinstein disagrees with this.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/ivy...


Edited by Go Green on 03-21-17 06:17 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
H78 
PhD Student
Posts: 1415
H78
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 01-06-11
03-21-17 07:36 PM - Post#227863    
    In response to SRP

  • SRP Said:
Perhaps we should look at the convex hull rather than a polygon.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1CP G5LYol...


I like this idea.

Points to a possible Bridgeport (mrjames) or Mohegan Sun (Old Bear) venue? Both neutral sites, both have facilities. Just not sure on the price.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2004

Reg: 11-23-04
03-22-17 12:54 AM - Post#227872    
    In response to H78

It would only be for one day if the semis are played on higher seed home courts on Friday. If the Ivies feel this tournament is so important there shouldn't be a problem coming up the $ for one MW Sunday double header. Advantage also is that teams making finals will have a travel/rest day. Comments from anyone beside GG whose views are already well known?

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 261

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
03-22-17 06:08 AM - Post#227874    
    In response to Tiger69

  • Tiger69 Said:
Comments from anyone beside GG whose views are already well known?



So well-known that I have already specifically addressed the arguments that you raised here the other times you raised them.



 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 981

Reg: 02-15-15
03-22-17 10:23 AM - Post#227884    
    In response to Tiger69

  • Tiger69 Said:
Comments from anyone beside GG whose views are already well known?



My comments? I agree with Go Green.

The tournament is a great addition and, while they should tweak it, the league, coaches, players and fans will continue to embrace it.



 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15890

Reg: 11-21-04
03-22-17 10:30 AM - Post#227885    
    In response to PennFan10

I don't think it matters what we think. The Powers that be believe that having a tournament and letting it take place at the Ivies' signature venue is valuable for branding. This is all about branding. IF they feel another venue could have similar value for the Ivy brand, it will be played there---but certainly, Bridgeport and Uncasville will not be the locations. Brooklyn could be, Boston could be, but it's not going to be in the middle of nowhere or along a freeway in a depressed former manufacturing town.

My view remains that a tournament detracts from the very Ivy idea of fairness in competition and honoring the true winner. So we shouldn't have one. But if we do, branding is the measure by which location will be determined.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 479

Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
03-22-17 11:03 AM - Post#227889    
    In response to palestra38

I agree that it is very unlikely that the Tournament will be held in Bridgeport, Mohegan Sun or some other less known location. It needs to be in a major city for some of the reason outlined by you. Brooklyn and/or Boston are probably the most realistic options. I would not be surprised if they opt for Boston or possibly the Palestra for next year and then move it to Brooklyn. Boston could create a similar issue to the Palestra relative to Harvard but if it is not at Harvard that lessens the debate.

With Mr. James initial projections for next year, will Robin and crew decide on going back to the Palestra and/or keep the same format for IL Tournament for year 2? It reminds me of the story that someone fell asleep at the wheel and almost got hit by a freight train crossing the railroad tracks. They found the experience so exciting that they decided to do it again. I doubt that the Committee will do it again if they have common sense but nothing would surprise me.

 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 981

Reg: 02-15-15
Yale
03-22-17 11:21 AM - Post#227892    
    In response to palestra38

  • palestra38 Said:

My view remains that a tournament detracts from the very Ivy idea of fairness in competition and honoring the true winner.



And this view has been repeated and repeated and repeated and repeated and.......not only by you but by every opponent of every conference tournament in every D1 league in the country. We get it. That's your view, and it's not wrong, it's just not what a vast majority of people value in the decision making process. Continuing to say it doesn't help your view or change anyone else's view.




Edited by PennFan10 on 03-22-17 11:22 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15890

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Yale
03-22-17 11:41 AM - Post#227893    
    In response to PennFan10

WTF are you ranting about? I acknowledged right off the top that the decision makers have made the decision to have a tournament and that where it will be played is based on the value to the Ivy brand. You don't disagree with that. You simply don't want to hear my opinion?

Fine, stop posting yours 20 times a day. Otherwise, I'll let you have your say and you let me have mine...and I guarantee you that most Ivy basketball FANS oppose a tournament.

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4617

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
03-22-17 11:59 AM - Post#227896    
    In response to palestra38

I don't know where the tournament will be next year. I like Bridgeport's arena, but I'm not sure that's the best town to hang around in (to put it nicely).

I just sense that there's building momentum against The Palestra - enough so, that they might be forced to try another option. I think the fairness issue extends beyond the simple 4-seed getting a home game argument.

I'm pretty solidly in the anti-tourney camp now, until the committee sheds the anti-mid bias (hopefully those modern metrics are coming soon). The math just doesn't work without the possibility of a second bid, and if Illinois State couldn't get one this year with a +1.5 WAB... I mean, it's gonna take some doing to get one of our teams there.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15890

Reg: 11-21-04
03-22-17 12:19 PM - Post#227897    
    In response to mrjames

I've long felt that a second bid was not in the cards. Hell, a good Yale team that beat some good competition this year and made a good showing in the NCAA's the prior year could not get an NIT bid. We're in the situation where the majors simply figure that they're giving us plenty with an auto bid. So yes, I don't think there's any real competitive reason to have a tournament.

Except for marketing.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 261

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
03-22-17 12:30 PM - Post#227899    
    In response to bradley

  • bradley Said:
I agree that it is very unlikely that the Tournament will be held in Bridgeport, Mohegan Sun or some other less known location. It needs to be in a major city for some of the reason outlined by you. Brooklyn and/or Boston are probably the most realistic options.



My own gut (for anyone who cares) is that if they opt for a neutral venue, cost considerations will trump convenience. I would predict we rent out another college's gym rather than a professional arena.

Obviously, the PL schools will need their gyms for their own potential home tournament game. SO I think we'd go cheap and would be making calls to places like Fordham, CCSU, or Delaware.

But we will see. Maybe the league does indeed open its wallet...

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 479

Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: Yale
03-22-17 12:36 PM - Post#227900    
    In response to palestra38

Many IL fans oppose the IL Tournament as you suggest although you can understand why 2nd half division teams embrace the concept. I also believe that many non-IL fans are not big fans of conference tournament winners getting the automatic bid.

When the IL Tournament was announced, a Northwestern grad Mike Greenberg said it best as follows: " I cannot stand that the IL is going to a conference tournament. The IL has been the lone hold out and the last conference doing it right. Up until this year, they gave the NCAA automatic bid to the regular season champion ... And you know why? ... They didn't need the money. Have you seen the endowments that these schools have? Harvard's endowment is bigger than the GNP of most countries. But next year, the team that has two good days in a row can undo all that happened in the preceding three months. I understand why many smaller conferences have a tournament -- they need the money. They might not even be able to field a team without the added revenue ... but you are talking about Harvard, Princeton and Yale! I hate it! Every conference should give the automatic bid to the team that finishes first in the regular season.


Unfortunately, the "cat is out of the bag" and it is too late to change it.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2004

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: Yale
03-22-17 01:40 PM - Post#227904    
    In response to bradley

I feel the momentum shifting (about the tourney and its many problems). (Welcome aboard MR James!). This discussion has been going on in at least two threads. Forgive me for repeating from the other thread, where there is much talking and little listening,

I am hearing many issues:

-Cost of Tourney
-Location (fairness and accessibility to fans of all schools)
-Reasonable reward to regular season champ
-Joint locale for M and W.

-Cost to the IL, joint locale and fairness to finalists can be addressed by scheduling only the M and W. finals in a neutral arena as a double header.
-Accessibility to all suggests a location in the NYC metro area.
-Reasonable reward to champ and to higher seeds is to locate semis in gyms of higher seeds. This also helps keep costs down.
-Reasonable reward to reg champs is problematic. In part the location of semis addresses this concern. But, I still believe the big prize, NCAA bid, belongs to champ. Tourney should be an inducement for the also-rans, but to a lesser prize I.e. NIT. Some folks, notably Go Green and PennFan, think that the Ivies have 0 say with the NIT and NCAA and we should behave ourselves and do whatever they tell us to; i.e. copy the sorry pecedent that other one bid conferences have set.

I disagree. Ivies are better than that. We owe the big prize to the champ. If the Tourney winner (if not the reg season champ) doesn't rate an NIT bid, that is the NIT's oversight, not ours. The NIT bid is not worth potentially depriving the 14 game champ of a field of eight teams the NCAA bid in favor of a two game season winner over a field of four. THE NIT IS A CONSOLATION PRIZE FOR RUNNERS-UP, NOT FOR CHAMPIONS. Ask any team which tournament it would rather be in.




 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 981

Reg: 02-15-15
Re: Yale
03-22-17 01:43 PM - Post#227905    
    In response to palestra38

  • palestra38 Said:
WTF are you ranting about? I acknowledged right off the top that the decision makers have made the decision to have a tournament and that where it will be played is based on the value to the Ivy brand. You don't disagree with that. You simply don't want to hear my opinion?

Fine, stop posting yours 20 times a day. Otherwise, I'll let you have your say and you let me have mine...and I guarantee you that most Ivy basketball FANS oppose a tournament.



DEAL! If you and everyone else will stop posting the exact same argument against the IL tourney every single day, I will also also stop. Agreed?

And I definitely want some action on your guarantee. I am pretty sure I can comfortably find more fans who like the tournament than you can find that don't like it. As long as the definition of fan isn't the same as poster on these boards. It's on....


 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 981

Reg: 02-15-15
03-22-17 01:48 PM - Post#227906    
    In response to PennFan10

I also believe the IL Tourney has a big impact on recruiting and longer term, the competitiveness of the league. The players are decidedly pro tournament and the more schools in the league that are playing meaningful games into March, the more attractive the IL option is for recruits. If Penn had recruites at the final game against Harvard, that has a much bigger affect than last years meaningless final home game against Columbia.

 
sparman 
Masters Student
Posts: 782
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
03-22-17 02:18 PM - Post#227914    
    In response to Go Green

  • Go Green Said:
  • Tiger69 Said:
Comments from anyone beside GG whose views are already well known?



So well-known that I have already specifically addressed the arguments that you raised here the other times you raised them.:)


Perhaps you did not realize he was asking for OTHER opinions, yours having been stated so often.


 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 2830

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
03-22-17 02:19 PM - Post#227915    
    In response to PennFan10

I'm just going to say this:

Stop considering the "fairness" factor. It's a nonissue for the decision makers. Once they opted for a tournament, fairness went over the side. As P38 says, this is about branding. It's about creating the most compelling entertainment product possible. Keeping those factors in mind, the Palestra is almost certainly the best location. Is that "fair?" Not even a little bit. Does that matter? Nope. Am I asking and answering my own questions like a famous Princeton alum who helped break the Middle East? You bet.

 
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