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Username Post: Men vs. Princeton        (Topic#20124)
UPIA1968 
PhD Student
Posts: 1116
UPIA1968
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
Re: Betley charge
03-12-17 09:40 PM - Post#226658    
    In response to Charlie Fog

I saw the replay in slow mo. It was a good call.

 
Streamers 
Professor
Posts: 8141
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Men vs. Princeton
03-13-17 10:24 AM - Post#226719    
    In response to SomeGuy

  • SomeGuy Said:
While some of Goodman's weaknesses were on display yesterday, we're simply a different team with him playing big minutes like that. He plays too fast at times, etc., but he also rebounds pretty well for a guard of his size and is active around the basket when he gets overly aggressive trying to get to the hoop. I've been happy with his development. My prediction (still) is that he'll start next year.


Thanks for posting your observations about the game Saturday. You saw some things going on with the Penn offense that I missed.
As for Goodman, hard to know without seeing Woods, but I expect he will start against some teams where he matches up well defensively; e.g. Columbia and Harvard.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3765

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
03-13-17 10:32 AM - Post#226722    
    In response to Streamers

Goodman clearly has speed, athleticism and aggressiveness in abundance. What he currently seems to lack is judgement (something you sort of need in a point guard). There's a pretty good chance he'll develop that as a sophomore. If he does, he's probably our point guard.

One other thing-- S. Donahue is probably as unexcited as I am about the quality of play the team has been getting at the point. If you look at who Verbal Commits says he's recruiting, he's clearly in the market for a top-notch player at that position.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32680

Reg: 11-21-04
03-13-17 10:38 AM - Post#226724    
    In response to Silver Maple

Well, what does it tell you that Goodman is inserted in the starting lineup for the playoff game? While his minutes have been steadily increasing, asking him to play the lead role for 30 minutes for the first time demonstrates the hope we can get better lead guard performance than we had throughout the season. And while Goodman's defense is much much better than anyone else we have at that spot, he clearly is not ready to distribute on the move. Foreman is not really a lead guard either--the next time I see him hit an open man off the dribble might be the first. So it's a clear need.

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 4466

Reg: 11-22-04
03-13-17 10:55 AM - Post#226730    
    In response to palestra38

i think it says the alternative was asking Jackson Donahue to guard Cannady. No thanks.

I agree with SM - we have two IMPACT freshmen. Devon could absolutely turn into an impact guy but he started almost by virtue of process of elimination. We continually had a rotating spot open there. This isn't really a shot at him, I just think he didn't demonstrate quite the ceiling (nor operate consistently at a high level) as Ryan/AJ did.

 
pennsive 
Junior
Posts: 200

Reg: 11-21-04
03-13-17 09:54 PM - Post#226873    
    In response to palestra38

Nowhere is the need manifested more than in our end of game strategy. At least three times this year Darnell took the last crucial shot (two, at least were from deep and low percentage shots). I have to think that SD must have a few last second plays in his arsenal that don't call for long hoists to save or ruin the day, but they are not evident. Presumably, to execute those, you need real point guard play. BTW, if Silpe develops a reliable shot, can he get back in the mix, or is he too slow and small to think that what once was a 3* high level recruit for us will come back and be the guard we are missing? There is no question in my mind that his passing is far superior to any other guard on our team, so I am hoping he does have an upside not yet revealed to us. As it is, however, defenses can drop back and cover the other four players and let him shoot, so that doesn't work without developing a shot and a motor like Rosen's.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21081

Reg: 12-02-04
03-13-17 10:04 PM - Post#226876    
    In response to Silver Maple

I've been saying all along that Goodman will be a valued 6th (or 7th) man off the bench in the future. Nothing over the past few weeks has changed my assessment. He is a part of this team's future, but not primarily as a starter.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32680

Reg: 11-21-04
03-13-17 10:05 PM - Post#226877    
    In response to pennsive

Unfortunately, his defense was worse than his shot. Silpe would have been an adequate Ivy point guard 10 years ago. However, the level of talent at that position has left him behind.

 
Basketball Bruce 
Freshman
Posts: 29

Age: 85
Reg: 01-22-17
03-13-17 11:48 PM - Post#226883    
    In response to palestra38

I'm sorry. You base this on what? The three games this year that he played more than four minutes? I thought he looked great against Temple. The other game he played significant minutes was Villanova. Other than those games and maybe one other, he really didn't play. I think we owe him the same "freshman mistakes" excuse so many on this board give to Goodman. Silpe was not put in a position to succeed last year, starting his first seven games as a shooting guard. After that, he lost his confidence. When he came back and especially during Ivy League play, he was much better. In fact, if you compare his in conference stats last year to Goodman's stats this year, you will see that Silpe's shooting was better and that in most other instances he is equal to or better than Goodman. Turnovers were a problem for Silpe, but I think that had something to do with a weaker supporting cast last year. As I said in an earlier post, I really think if Silpe was given a chance to play with AJ and Betley and even Foreman and/or Goodman as shooting guards, we would have seen some really great ball movement and a lot more opportunities for Betley and AJ and the others to shoot. Silpe is an unselfish player who always sees the floor. I think he could have really helped Penn this season.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32680

Reg: 11-21-04
03-14-17 04:17 AM - Post#226893    
    In response to Basketball Bruce

I base it on watching him play and more importantly, watching the coach leave him on the bench. Whatever you may think, he simply doesn't have the quickness to guard the elite guards in this league. Goodman does. No question that he has better passing skills than anyone else, but his defense and lack of a shot is why he isn't playing. I'm just reporting what is obvious to anyone watching the team. I'm sure he's a great kid. He would be playing if I were wrong about him---we really need a true point guard.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
03-14-17 09:09 AM - Post#226899    
    In response to pennsive

I thought Goodman did a good job finding the open man at the end of the Harvard game. He may have only had the ball because Foreman had fouled out, but I thought he did well there (and saw the floor).

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32680

Reg: 11-21-04
03-14-17 09:23 AM - Post#226900    
    In response to SomeGuy

He saw the floor from 30 feet out. That's very different from seeing the floor on a drive through the lane. Give him credit for that play but most times, you're not playing for a 30 footer to win the game.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
03-14-17 09:53 AM - Post#226905    
    In response to palestra38

The key there was that he saw the floor and found the open guy. I assume that, if Baker went out and guarded Donahue, Goodman would have gotten the ball to AJ or Betley. I suspect if Foreman hadn't fouled out, he would have dribbled around and then taken a 3 himself. And Goodman does do a good job of driving and dishing to Betley in the corner. The reason that hasn't happened the last couple of weekends is because everybody saw that we did it over and over again during our winning streak.



 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3578

Reg: 02-15-15
03-14-17 10:02 AM - Post#226908    
    In response to SomeGuy

Yeah, the difference between end of regulation against Harvard and end of regulation against Princetion 3.0 was Goodman vs Darnell. Dev had the ball and actually ran the play against Harvard (There is no way Foreman passes that ball to let Jackson win the game). Against Princeton Darnell (Why did Matt H pass it to Darnell on the inbound when Dev was there too?) had Betley wide open on the final play and chose to jack up a 3 with multiple Princeton defenders on him.

Those two plays are a microcosm of the difference between those two players.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
03-14-17 10:06 AM - Post#226910    
    In response to Basketball Bruce

Well, I agree that sometimes the call as to who gets to make mistakes and who does not is a close one. However, I agree with the coach on this one. In the Princeton game, we are playing a team that runs an offense purely built to find and exploit a defensive mismatch. They have 5 guys who can beat you, and they always have 4 of them on the floor. In the first two games, we couldn't guard all 4. In this last one, with Goodman starting, we could -- at least when our staters were in. This is why, when MacDonald was in, you may have noticed that whoever he was guarding kept scoring.

The change was so effective that Princeton basically pulled their center for the whole 2nd half, so they could play all 5 offensive options and draw AJ out of the middle. That created a mismatch for us with AJ, who after 2.5 games of getting doubled and knocked around finally got open looks. We took it to Princeton and made them adjust to us, and that is why we should have beat them. And it started with playing Goodman 37 minutes.

Back to Silpe, he just doesn't look like a system fit to me. Yes, it would be great to have a pass first PG if he could do other things and protect the ball. That hasn't been Silpe so far. But you know who didn't look like a system fit a year ago? Darnell Foreman. If I were Jake, I'd follow Foreman around all offseason and do whatever he does. I'd ask what he did last year. I'd ask the coaches what Foreman did (and I need to do) to make myself a fit. Yes, they have different skill sets, but I think Silpe can add some stuff (and learn a bit about how you go about convincing the coaches) from Foreman.



 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32680

Reg: 11-21-04
03-14-17 10:11 AM - Post#226911    
    In response to SomeGuy

I really like Devon's game---but he only averaged 1.75 assists per game in 15 minutes per game. That is a lower average per minute than Foreman. He has a long way to go before he can be said to be a true point. We need someone who can get 7-8 assists a game or more to get to the next level. And I will note that 2 years ago, Antonio Woods had by far the most assists on the team (albeit still just under 4 a game). Only Rosen in recent years had numbers in the 8 range and above. But Woods is probably the best option for next year and if has improved since his full freshman year, he will be an enormous upgrade.

 
SteveDanley 
Sophomore
Posts: 101

Age: 39
Reg: 02-25-12
03-14-17 10:25 AM - Post#226913    
    In response to palestra38

  • palestra38 Said:
I base it on watching him play and more importantly, watching the coach leave him on the bench. Whatever you may think, he simply doesn't have the quickness to guard the elite guards in this league.



Re: Silpe, I disagree with this, but also this general line of thinking about players in this (or any other) program.

My philosophy is that most D1 players would be pretty effective in the right situations. I've seen players play meaningful significant minutes (Greg Kuchinski, who walked on his 5th year at Penn, Frederich Ebede, who sat his whole career at the 3, then became a reasonably effective stretch 4 off the bench his senior year out of necessity). Other guys (Osmundson) looked like 1st league players in the offseason, but had to balance a different role (caretaker) and struggled at times.

And it follows that if there is a solid contributor inside almost every player, that coaches still have to make difficult decisions (who to invest in, whose development takes priority -- when to create lineups around certain players that make sense, and, of course, who to play).

I think there's a decent chance Silpe gets passed over here -- a brutal experience for a young man whose identity is being a hoops player -- but I played with him in summer league the year he entered Penn, and still believe there's a starting Ivy point guard in him. For whatever reason, the game hasn't slowed down, and he certainly would have benefited from having a shot creator on the wing. But he can make shots, is a good distributor, and is quick/strong enough to defend competently.

Maybe it doesn't click for him. Maybe it does, and the program has already moved on. But I'm hesitant to say that b/c guys didn't contribute early in difficult situations (i.e., they were asked to create at the end of the shot clock b/c of the lack of off-the-dribble scorers in the program) that they couldn't be meaningful contributors. Imagine I'll be saying the same thing about Sam Jones (obvious limitations, but with a grade-a skill -- he can shoot and is get get his shot off) and others.

I lived through this -- my roommate freshman year was Ryan Pettinella -- he was a freak-show of an athlete (virtually the fastest guy on the team in a straight line sprint). For Dunph's system (needing bigs who passed) I was a better fit -- but Pet ended up starting at Virginia and contributing there. On the other end, coaches told me Pat Hadden would be my starting PG for 3 years on my recruiting visit. A dozen other guys went through the same challenges with fit and expectations -- and don't get me started on coaching changes and learning that coaches' value different skills.

Sometimes it happens. Sometimes it doesn't. And there are a million reasons why (not all in a player's control).

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21081

Reg: 12-02-04
03-14-17 10:36 AM - Post#226915    
    In response to SteveDanley

  • SteveDanley Said:
But he can make shots, is a good distributor, and is quick/strong enough to defend competently.



Agree with you on item #2 (he has made some awesome passes). I think the jury is still out on #3. But it's item #1 where there's the greatest discrepancy between expectations and observations. He has not made shots, period. If he did, he'd see more PT (albeit as an 8th or 9th man, but at least he'd be a regular part of the rotation).


 
SteveDanley 
Sophomore
Posts: 101

Age: 39
Reg: 02-25-12
03-14-17 10:43 AM - Post#226916    
    In response to penn nation

Agree that we haven't seen a lot of shot making in games (having played with him, I don't think scoring is missing from the skillset, though I also don't think he'll be an all-Ivy creater). Not sure exactly why we're so down on his D -- but haven't taken much of a dive into the advanced stats. I'm not as down on his physical tools as others.

But also think that there's a reason everyone is frustrated with Goodman / Darnell as well. They're now getting stuck with the difficult shots (off the dribble, end of shot clock, when sets break down) that happen to teams without elite 1-on-1 scorers. That's a brutal role without an all-Ivy guy next to you to clean up (thanks Ibby!).

The role is tough. He's struggled in it. So have the other PGs we've put out there (they've also showed skill sets with bright sides and big gaps). Not sure it means Silpe's not capable of playing at this level so much as it means, for whatever reason, this mix of guys with this coach hasn't worked out so far (and the nature of college hoops is when that happens, coaches understandably keep moving on).



 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32680

Reg: 11-21-04
03-14-17 10:50 AM - Post#226918    
    In response to SteveDanley

All true, but you saw yourself with Ibby the huge difference a PG with Division 1 (not just Ivy) quickness makes. I always thought that Miller would have been much more successful had David Whitehurst remained in school rather than having to go with freshmen the year after you graduated. But almost all successful Penn teams have had a PG who was a superior athlete. There's no better example of that than the 2000-01 team that lost Jordan and Langel and despite still having Ugonna and Koko, Owens, Chubb and Schiffner, went 12-17 because a guard combo that I would compare with guys like we were playing before bringing Goodman up to first team (Copp, Klatsky and Plummer)couldn't match up with opponents. Copp was also very favorably heralded as a recruit. So I am not at all knocking Silpe's skills with the ball, but if he were viewed as having the speed and defensive quickness to match up with our opponents, he would be playing.

 
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