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Username Post: Men vs. Princeton        (Topic#20124)
UPIA1968 
Masters Student
Posts: 675
UPIA1968
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
03-14-17 11:10 PM - Post#227039    
    In response to Basketball Bruce

Perhaps in this debate over point guards we should focus less on the Goodman/Silpe choice and more on the talent level needed in the 1-2 guard positions. Penn was contention level at 3-4-5 with Betley, Howard and Bodeur. Whoever played at 1-2 was at a much lower level. The void there is why in the Ivies Penn was 6-9 rather than 10-5 and in the tournament final.

So the debate should be about where we get a serious UPGRADE over 2017 performance. I guess Devon gets the nod because he has elite quickness and one hopes that he will develop better shot and better court judgement. Alternately we have to hope that one of the new people next year will be an elite scorer. Should that occur than Steve D's supposition that a complementary talent (translate to lesser talent) will work at the 1 position. Woods could be that person; a more mature Devon could be; a better shooting Silpe could be.

One other point. One must concede that Donahue is a competent college coach. Maybe not a John Wooden, but certainly competent. Given the obvious talent void in the backcourt on this team it is inconceivable that he would not give time to a player that showed significant talent on the practice court. Jake did not get time this year in part due to his indifferent play in the Palestra, but mainly Donahue's choice was due to Jake's indifferent play in Hutch.

One of every 2,000 high school guards plays in college. The business of determining which of the many pretenders will become a major contributor against competition that is 2000 times harder will always be a great mystery.

 
Penndemonium 
Masters Student
Posts: 529

Reg: 11-29-04
03-14-17 11:44 PM - Post#227043    
    In response to UPIA1968

One other thing is that Simmons, Williams, and Scott seem like they might be good complements to Silpe. From their video, they each seem like they would provide the slashing style that would allow him to be a real facilitator. The problem is that none of the 4 appears to be a pure three point threat. Unless Silpe becomes that, I don't see him becoming the perfectly complementary piece to a championship squad.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15657

Reg: 11-21-04
Men vs. Princeton
03-15-17 06:46 AM - Post#227046    
    In response to Penndemonium

Again, both of the last 2 posters don't mention defense. Prior to the insertion of Goodman, we had offensive droughts similar to that in the second half against Princeton and they inevitably cost us the game. Now (and the same thing happened against Columbia as well), Princeton also struggled for points and never pulled ahead. We are significantly tougher on defense with Goodman---and I think that, more than anything else, was the reason he was in there.

And seriously, UPIA, you mean that it's Goodman's fault that Howard missed the FT at the end, since you appear to say that if he had more game, we would have been in the final ("The void there is why in the Ivies Penn was 6-9 rather than 10-5 and in the tournament final.") ??

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 3392

Reg: 11-22-04
03-15-17 09:56 AM - Post#227064    
    In response to palestra38

it's not goodman's fault that Howard missed the shot. But it is his fault he went 2-13.

And it's not Matt's fault that Devon went 2-13 but it is his fault he missed the free throw.

This isn't to place blame, just to recognize failure had many fathers.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 2816

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
03-15-17 10:04 AM - Post#227067    
    In response to palestra38

Should Jarod Simmons turn out to be an impact player next season (a pretty good possibility), it seems to me that this will fundamentally change the job the team's guards have to do. Right now Penn has only two PF/C players. One is very good, the other is serviceable. If we get to a point next year where we have two very good PF/C players on the court together most of the time, that's likely to change the design of both the offensive and defensive schemes. Exactly what the coaches will change remains to be seen, but there's a chance that the skill requirements for our guards will change, and that a player with Jake Silpe's very particular set of skills (skills he has acquired over a very long career) will become more valuable to the team.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 2816

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
03-15-17 10:08 AM - Post#227069    
    In response to Jeff2sf

  • Jeff2sf Said:
it's not goodman's fault that Howard missed the shot. But it is his fault he went 2-13.

And it's not Matt's fault that Devon went 2-13 but it is his fault he missed the free throw.

This isn't to place blame, just to recognize failure had many fathers.



I'll say this about Devon Goodman-- he's clearly a chucker. Steve Donahue really seems to like chuckers. If Devon learns to chuck with more accuracy, he's going to play a lot.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15657

Reg: 11-21-04
03-15-17 10:28 AM - Post#227076    
    In response to Jeff2sf

Except that I was commenting on Devon's defense---I acknowledge that he has a long way to go on offense.

But when we weren't scoring, neither was Princeton and THAT is a big change.

 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 961

Reg: 02-15-15
03-15-17 01:12 PM - Post#227108    
    In response to Silver Maple

  • Silver Maple Said:
Should Jarod Simmons turn out to be an impact player next season (a pretty good possibility), it seems to me that this will fundamentally change the job the team's guards have to do. Right now Penn has only two PF/C players. One is very good, the other is serviceable. If we get to a point next year where we have two very good PF/C players on the court together most of the time, that's likely to change the design of both the offensive and defensive schemes. Exactly what the coaches will change remains to be seen, but there's a chance that the skill requirements for our guards will change, and that a player with Jake Silpe's very particular set of skills (skills he has acquired over a very long career) will become more valuable to the team.



We have two very good post players this year and we rarely saw them. Max is more than serviceable, but not as long as AJ, but that's what he was asked to do for this team. Donahue isn't playing 2 bigs for long stretches anytime soon.


 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3069

Reg: 02-04-06
03-15-17 01:25 PM - Post#227113    
    In response to PennFan10

"Exactly what the coaches will change remains to be seen, but there's a chance that the skill requirements for our guards will change, and that a player with Jake Silpe's very particular set of skills (skills he has acquired over a very long career) will become more valuable to the team."

Liam Neeson will play him in the movie made about next season.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15657

Reg: 11-21-04
03-15-17 02:24 PM - Post#227124    
    In response to SRP

Don't you have an NCAA game to prepare to watch this week (but funny comment)?

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 2816

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
03-15-17 03:01 PM - Post#227137    
    In response to SRP

  • SRP Said:
"Exactly what the coaches will change remains to be seen, but there's a chance that the skill requirements for our guards will change, and that a player with Jake Silpe's very particular set of skills (skills he has acquired over a very long career) will become more valuable to the team."

Liam Neeson will play him in the movie made about next season.



Or maybe Kermit the Frog. I'm glad somebody got that reference.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4127

Reg: 11-22-04
03-16-17 06:08 AM - Post#227195    
    In response to Silver Maple

Not sure Goodman's really that much of a chucker. His field goal attempt rate is actually lower than most of the guys in the rotation. Even against Princeton, you had pretty even distribution. The five guys who played 37 or more minutes all took between 10 and 13 shots. That's close enough where, in one game, I'd say it was fairly random that he took the most shots.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4127

Reg: 11-22-04
03-16-17 06:14 AM - Post#227196    
    In response to PennFan10

Disagree on this. If Donahue has another AJ level big, he'll play him. He did it at Cornell when the personnel dictated it. Moreover, Donahue has bucked some historical tendencies with the defense as Penn coach. So I don't think we can be certain of what he'll do simply because of what he did in the past.

On Simmons, though, it is of course possible that he isn't ready to contribute immediately in the way AJ was. So we may end up playing the way we did this year. If he's ready to contribute a little, that still may free us up to play Rothschild with AJ together more, as there may be less nervousness about foul trouble leaving us with zero bigs. Offseason for Max should be defense, defense, defense.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4127

Reg: 11-22-04
03-16-17 08:34 AM - Post#227197    
    In response to Basketball Bruce

I'm not sure how much we can tell about leadership from watching the games. In regard to animated/vocal leadership, Foreman, Donahue, and Rothschild seem to do that. Foreman and Donahue appear to direct traffic (and the coach specifically references Donahue providing that). The team voted for Howard and MacDonald as captains. Other guys may be able to do it, too, but I'm not sure there is a void there that Silpe needs to fill. And in terms of willing guys to win, well, we won more this year (and certainly were a more fun, seemingly competitive team to watch).

It may be worth noting that not everyone can (or needs to) be a leader. We don't know what the kids are like behind the scenes (at least I don't), but it is possible that Goodman keeps his head down and does his job, and that may actually be part of why he has moved ahead, too.

 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 961

Reg: 02-15-15
03-16-17 09:40 AM - Post#227199    
    In response to SomeGuy

  • SomeGuy Said:
Disagree on this. If Donahue has another AJ level big, he'll play him. He did it at Cornell when the personnel dictated it. Moreover, Donahue has bucked some historical tendencies with the defense as Penn coach. So I don't think we can be certain of what he'll do simply because of what he did in the past.

On Simmons, though, it is of course possible that he isn't ready to contribute immediately in the way AJ was. So we may end up playing the way we did this year. If he's ready to contribute a little, that still may free us up to play Rothschild with AJ together more, as there may be less nervousness about foul trouble leaving us with zero bigs. Offseason for Max should be defense, defense, defense.



Max is not far off AJ. He played 20 minutes maybe 1 time this year. Last year in the 3 games he played more than 20 minutes he scored 18,18,14. Many games this year he had great first half (6 pts, 5 reb) and played 1-2 minutes in the second half. Donahue does not want to play 2 bigs. That's a fact. In the sweet 16 run, they had 2 bigs who played a lot during the season and he played with 1 big the last part of the year and in the tourney.

He doesn't want to play 2 bigs. He tried it a bit this year but never for any kind of stretch, even when it was working. It was not because of a lack of talent or belief in Max.

 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 961

Reg: 02-15-15
03-16-17 09:42 AM - Post#227201    
    In response to Quakers03

I would really like to see what happens with Tyler Hamilton this offseason. he has the biggest opportunity with Matt's departure. His development on the offensive end (he seems a capable defender) could be huge.

While I am hopeful we can catch lightning in a bottle for the second time in a row with Jarrod Simmons doing his AJ impersonation, I am not confident that will be the case and betting on it is a precarious position.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15657

Reg: 11-21-04
03-16-17 09:53 AM - Post#227203    
    In response to PennFan10

Come on, get real. Rothschild is a serviceable Ivy big in the class of some of those Yale bangers over the years. Nice player to have. Has a few nice strength moves inside. I'm glad we have him. BUT AJ is a potential star. He's a guy who could AVERAGE 20 ppg his junior and senior years. He was our high scorer as a freshman at 13.8, shooting over 52% (and even 41% from 3, which will be a serious weapon of his over time). He averaged almost 3 blocks a game and is a far better defensive center than Rothschild.

They are not in the same class as players. AJ is the primary reason we improved this year, with Betley second.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 2816

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
03-16-17 10:08 AM - Post#227204    
    In response to PennFan10

  • PennFan10 Said:

Max is not far off AJ.



Come on. Really? Max is an adequate Ivy forward, and also clearly plays an important leadership role on the team. He's obviously a great kid, and I feel fortunate he's on our team. But to say he's near the caliber of player Brodeur is from the standpoint of skills, athleticism or basketball IQ is just ridiculous.


  • PennFan10 Said:

Donahue does not want to play 2 bigs. That's a fact.



I think you're struggling a bit with the meaning of the word 'fact.' It would probably be accurate to say that Steve Donahue has generally only played one 4-5 player during his coaching career. But that tells us nothing about his desires or intentions. The 'fact' is, Donahue has never had two bigs of the caliber of Brodeur and Simmons (assuming the recruiting ratings are accurate) at the same time while coaching in the Ivies (I have no idea what he had while at BC-- I wasn't paying attention). So we really have no idea what the coach is going to do should Simmons prove to be as good a player as we're all hoping he'll be.

One other thing: I doubt Simmons would have chosen Penn if it was a 'fact' that Donahue only wants to play one big.


 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 3392

Reg: 11-22-04
03-16-17 10:47 AM - Post#227211    
    In response to Silver Maple

  • Silver Maple Said:


One other thing: I doubt Simmons would have chosen Penn if it was a 'fact' that Donahue only wants to play one big.





This is a good point. Read this from Simmons and we learn two things:

1. He chose Penn partly because he thinks he can play right away.
2. He was recruited as a 4.

So the only way PF10 can be right about Donahue's intentions are if:
1. Simmons is lying

or
2. Donahue said "I'll give you a fair and square chance to go up against Brodeur even though he's the best frosh we've had in years and if you beat him out in practice, you'll get to play a lot"
AND
3. Donahue said "AJ is a 4"

http://blogs.post-gazette.com/sports/varsity-blog/...

 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 961

Reg: 02-15-15
03-16-17 10:39 PM - Post#227422    
    In response to Jeff2sf

You guys missed my point. Max is not AJ I realize. But he is also much more than a "serviceable Ivy Big", though if you watched how they used him most of the year I understand how you would think that. He played between 8-18 minutes depending largely on foul trouble for AJ and Matt H. From what I saw of Max last year and in halves this year he is a guy with ability to play in the league. He is different than AJ but if you compare the two he scores with both hands (AJ has no left hand), he is a good ball handler, He scores off the bounce much more than AJ. So he can score and get you a double double if given the minutes. That's not speculation, he has actually done it against good players.

This year he had a couple games where AJ got in foul trouble and he would come in, play 10 first half minutes and get 6 pts and 5 rebounds and then wouldn't play in the second half. That's not because he isn't skilled or is just "serviceable". Its because Donahue doesn't play two bigs and I don't believe that is going to change.

You can argue that SD doesn't play two bigs because of talent but that's where I would strongly disagree based on what we have seen. He has a guy in Max that has merited being on the floor more than he is and he hasn't done it. He also went away from it at the end of his Cornell run and made the sweet 16 with only 1 big on the floor. So I have my doubts about Simmons or any other big we get over the next 3 years.

 
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