Untitled Document
Brown Columbia Cornell Dartmouth Harvard Penn Princeton Yale



 Page 8 of 9 « First<6789
Username Post: Men vs. Princeton        (Topic#20124)
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4127

Reg: 11-22-04
03-17-17 08:13 AM - Post#227436    
    In response to PennFan10

I think defense is where the big difference is. AJ's a big reason why we moved up about 100 spots defensively this year. I think AJ is ahead offensively, too, as others have noted, but the difference isn't as great. I think if you look at our +/- with AJ on the floor even in the games he isn't scoring, you'll see the difference he makes.

As for the 2nd big, the simple fact that Donahue recruited Simmons should tell you that he intends to play him (if ready). Do you really think he's bringing him in to sit for 2 years, play a couple of minutes a game as a junior backing up AJ when Max graduates, and then start as a senior after AJ is done? That doesn't seem likely to me. I think you're focusing on everything except what Donahue is actually doing, which ought to be your biggest clue.



 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4127

Reg: 11-22-04
03-17-17 08:17 AM - Post#227437    
    In response to Jeff2sf

While I think you are right, Jeff, there is another possibility. Maybe Donahue told Simmons he would compete to start as a 4, but what Donahue was thinking was "little does he know that i'm planning to play Ryan Betley as a small 4 in a 4 guard lineup for the next 3 years." Obviously I don't think that's the case, but it seems to me that it's as likely as Simmons lying. Which is to say it isn't very likely.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 2816

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
03-17-17 09:48 AM - Post#227447    
    In response to SomeGuy

Currently, Donahue only has two bigs of true quality. That being the case, he doesn't play them simultaneously all that often, because he can't risk them both getting into foul trouble. But he does play them together sometimes, which tells us unequivocally that his offensive and defensive schemes are designed to accommodate two 4/5 players. Beginning next year, the team will have three good bigs (hopefully). If that turns out to be the case, I predict we'll see two of them playing together a lot. And we'll likely even see two of them starting.

 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 961

Reg: 02-15-15
03-17-17 09:58 AM - Post#227448    
    In response to Silver Maple

Again, this is all speculation but, SomeGuy, to your point I AM focused on what Donahue is actually doing. He ISN'T and HASNT played two bigs despite the presence of a two bigs that have performed at a double double level. So whether he says he will play 2 bigs to Simmons, Max or anyone else, is decidedly different that what he is "actually doing".

Now we can debate as to whether thats because of personnel or style/philosophy but there is plenty of evidence that spans his coaching career that it is the latter not the former.

 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 961

Reg: 02-15-15
03-17-17 10:10 AM - Post#227449    
    In response to PennFan10

By the way, I am pretty sure SD didn't tell Caleb Wood he was going to come in and sit the bench either. Nor did he likely tell Matt M he would name him captain and he would ride the pine. So as far as analyzing what SD is doing as it pertains to selling recruits on the program, I am sure he is telling Simmons he will play right away. The list of coaches who tell recruits what they want to hear is 300 schools long.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 2816

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
Men vs. Princeton
03-17-17 10:22 AM - Post#227452    
    In response to PennFan10

  • PennFan10 Said:
The list of coaches who tell recruits what they want to hear is 300 schools long.



That's true, but some are generally honest, while others have sometimes demonstrated a more casual relationship with the truth (see Carmody, Bill).

Another point: Brodeur and (according to what I have read) Simmons are not big players in the mold of Jeff Foote and Darien N-H. While they both know what to do when they're in the paint with their back to the basket, they both also have the skills to play further from the basket and do a lot of the things that a SF generally does (shoot the 3, guard their man on the perimeter, etc.) Given the approach that Donahue is taking, he might be able to have the two of them on the floor at the same time without changing up the style.

 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 2893

Age: 53
Reg: 07-07-09
03-17-17 10:45 AM - Post#227454    
    In response to Silver Maple

Remember that the player has to deliver on his part of the bargain too.

Based on stories I've heard about how Donahue handled his Cornell players, I think he's an honest broker.

SM's point is valid - it was difficult to give Max extended minutes when you run the risk of getting both him and AJ in foul trouble. Another consideration is whether AJ and Max are most comfortable in the same areas of the court. I think they are, so you risk bogging things down when they play together. It's possible Simmons will be more compatible when paired with one of AJ/Max.


 
Penn7277 
PhD Student
Posts: 1146

Loc: Lancaster, PA
Reg: 11-21-04
03-17-17 11:17 AM - Post#227457    
    In response to TheLine

What role, if any, will the really big guy SD recruited play?


 
Streamers 
PhD Student
Posts: 1670
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
03-17-17 11:18 AM - Post#227458    
    In response to TheLine

If Simmons is as advertised and Jackson can play, we will see a LOT of 2-bigs when the matchups warrant it. Big IFs I know, but there will be plenty of fouls to give with all 4 of those guys who all complement each other

 
91Quake 
Masters Student
Posts: 434

Reg: 11-22-04
03-17-17 11:20 AM - Post#227459    
    In response to TheLine

Dunphy while at Penn I know from several accounts only told recruits they would be given the opportunity to compete for playing time. He never promised them playing time. This clearly hurt us at times as many coaches do make promises to recruits. This seems to be the approach Donahue follows based on what the recruits have been saying generally.

And you can't play two bigs for very long when you only have two you consider reliable. If that number becomes three or more you will see a different approach. That will help us a lot. Our offensive rebounding when AJ,playing as the only big, stepped away from the basket was pretty non-existant. In an era where the bigs step out on the perimeter a lot more, you need to play with two.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 2816

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
03-17-17 11:33 AM - Post#227460    
    In response to 91Quake

My expectation is that Mark Jackson will spend the next four years pulling splinters out of his tuches. However, being wrong about this would be AWESOME. Imagine what a 7-2 guy who's even just competent would do for the team. Even if all he can do is pass out of the high post and rebound on offense and guard the paint and rebound on defense, that changes everything. So, despite being unable to shake the attitude that 7-2 guys who can play simply don't go to Ivies, I remain hopeful.

 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 961

Reg: 02-15-15
Re: Men vs. Princeton
03-17-17 11:33 AM - Post#227461    
    In response to Silver Maple

  • Silver Maple Said:
  • PennFan10 Said:
The list of coaches who tell recruits what they want to hear is 300 schools long.



That's true, but some are generally honest, while others have sometimes demonstrated a more casual relationship with the truth (see Carmody, Bill).




I am pretty sure SD was being honest with Caleb Wood, Matt M. Things don't always work out as you envision. He probably was pretty hopeful last year, based on his experience, when he named Silpe the starting point guard. Stuff happens. So it's in coaches best interest to recruit great players and then tell them how big their role can be. If what a coach tells a recruit and what actually happens were always true, there wouldn't be many bench players in D1.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15648

Reg: 11-21-04
03-17-17 11:33 AM - Post#227462    
    In response to 91Quake

I don't see any evidence that Steve made promises he didn't keep? Do you? The transfers both played significant minutes until it was clear that it was not working. And they both were big cheerleaders on the bench--it's not as though anyone was quitting the team. It seems everyone gets a chance and performance is what puts some of them on the court for more minutes.

 
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 961

Reg: 02-15-15
03-17-17 11:45 AM - Post#227463    
    In response to Streamers

  • Streamers Said:
If Simmons is as advertised and Jackson can play, we will see a LOT of 2-bigs when the matchups warrant it. Big IFs I know, but there will be plenty of fouls to give with all 4 of those guys who all complement each other



The point of having little depth to play two bigs is valid and may change SD's thinking when Simmons is in the fold. But we had two bigs this year and didn't play them together much. I believe, with no information, its because of philosophy not depth. We will see. I hope Max and AJ make huge strides in the games and Simmons is the second coming of AJ. That would be a fun problem to have and may force SD's hand.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4127

Reg: 11-22-04
03-17-17 12:17 PM - Post#227466    
    In response to PennFan10

The issue is fouls. Donahue basically took AJ out whenever he committed a foul (I assume because they thought he had a tendency to foul twice in a row -- something I know they were statistically aware of with Ugonna in the past). If you are playing both bigs simulataneously, and you remove AJ whenever he fouls, and you remove any big who gets 2 for the rest of the 1st half, and you need to rest guys sometimes, and Max tends to foul, it gets very easy to end up with both guys on the bench. We clearly didn't want to do that this year for even short stretches, let alone long ones. I think that was the main reason you didn't see both bigs playing together.

 
Penndemonium 
Masters Student
Posts: 529

Reg: 11-29-04
03-17-17 12:51 PM - Post#227469    
    In response to SomeGuy

While Brodeur is more of a 5 for us, I think he would be a championship level Ivy 4. So I hope that there is a 5 who could let him move over.

Simmons has the potential to play the 5 if he gets a little more physical, but also could play the 3 if he improves his shooting. We need him more as a 4/5, though.

It feels to me like Scott will be ready in the wings to become a great 3/4.

 
QHoops 
Junior
Posts: 262

Reg: 12-16-04
03-17-17 01:00 PM - Post#227471    
    In response to SomeGuy

And remember Matt H played above his size, which sure helped with rebounding this year. His 30 minutes are up for grabs, and it's pretty easy to see a split in those 30 minutes between going big - Max or Simmons, and going small - Betley, Jones, or Hamilton.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15648

Reg: 11-21-04
03-17-17 01:02 PM - Post#227472    
    In response to QHoops

Take Betley out of that equation. He will get at least 25 minutes a game next year no matter where he is playing.

 
QHoops 
Junior
Posts: 262

Reg: 12-16-04
03-17-17 02:02 PM - Post#227476    
    In response to palestra38

Of course. I'd be surprised if he wasn't a 30+ guy next year. My point was that some (hopefully few) of those minutes will be with only 1 'big' on the floor.

That doesn't make him a 4, but he probably would be the second best rebounder out there in that particular situation.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15648

Reg: 11-21-04
Men vs. Princeton
03-17-17 02:14 PM - Post#227478    
    In response to QHoops

I see in the long run that Betley is a clear 3---similar in role to Bernardini. Put some big men out there and he'll get 6-8 rebounds. It gets a lot tougher when he's trying to get the rebounds against a guy who is 2-3 inches taller and 20 pounds heavier.

But I think we have our "3" for 3 more years. That makes the replacement of Howard a bit easier because he really was an undersized 4. I don't like the combination of AJ and Rothschild though, even if AJ plays some at the top of the key to take advantage of his improved 3 point shot (as I am sure it will improve, and it was pretty good this year). But we have no one better at getting to the basket from a position inside the post--all he has to do is improve on hitting a higher percentage of those bunnies (as I am sure that will improve too).

Between AJ and Betley, we have 2 guys who should be at 15 ppg or better. That's a great start. And if we get from Woods what I think we will get, all we need is some starter quality play from one of the freshmen as a "4" and we can compete next year for a title.

 
 Page 8 of 9 « First<6789
Icon Legend Permissions Topic Options
Report Post

Quote Post

Quick Reply

Print Topic

Email Topic

5653 Views





Copyright © 2004-2012 Basketball U. Terms of Use for our Site and Privacy Policy are applicable to you. All rights reserved.
Basketball U. and its subsidiaries are not affiliated in any way with any NCAA athletic conference or member institution.
FusionBB™ Version 2.1 | ©2003-2007 InteractivePHP, Inc.
Execution time: 0.222 seconds.   Total Queries: 16   Zlib Compression is on.
All times are (GMT -0500) Eastern. Current time is 04:54 AM
Top