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Username Post: Thoughts from a curmudgeon        (Topic#20133)
PennFan10 
Masters Student
Posts: 948

Reg: 02-15-15
03-13-17 01:16 AM - Post#226684    
    In response to gopenngo

I'll take the other side of never.

 
caughtinasnare 
Senior
Posts: 306

Age: 28
Reg: 02-21-09
03-13-17 01:44 AM - Post#226685    
    In response to gopenngo

I think we're all here because we enjoy basketball, and Penn basketball in particular, yes? Well, in a season when we would not have gotten to see any exciting Penn basketball, we instead did get that opportunity. Likewise was the case for Columbia fans, Yale fans, and arguably Harvard fans. As such, since the whole reason we watch basketball is because we enjoy basketball, especially exciting basketball, the Ivy tournament was immensely successful because that is exactly what it gave us.

Now, that's a lot different than the example today in the World Baseball Classic of putting men on 1st and 2nd with no outs to start the 11th inning, dooming any hope Colombia had of beating the Dominican Republic. If you want to argue against that, I'll absolutely take up the fight, but the Ivy tournament gave us something to look forward to, both this year and in the years to come, which we otherwise would not have had given where we were just over a month ago, when we were rooting for an 0-6 Ivy team with no hope in sight. I was critical of the concept at first too, because like others think, it devalued the regular season. Looking back, I am able to admit I was wrong.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4116

Reg: 11-22-04
03-13-17 06:43 AM - Post#226690    
    In response to gopenngo

Hang on -- do you really think the Penn men feel more of a sense of success as a result of the tournament? I don't think that's the case at all. I think having Princeton on the hook in a winner take all to finish the season and letting them wriggle away is far more disappointing than going 6-8 in the league under the old system. And I don't think it is anywhere close. I am quite confident that the end was far more devastating than having the season end mathematically a month ago and playing out the string.

There isn't a participation trophy involved in this at all. This was a real chance to go to the NCAA's, and regardless of whether we as fans thought of it as house money, I am sure the kids were believing on Saturday, and therefore it hurt to lose, and hurt a lot. And that's what you learn and grow from.



 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4116

Reg: 11-22-04
03-13-17 06:45 AM - Post#226691    
    In response to besnoah

Ok, but how is the Ivy tournament anything but a good thing for Penn? How could it hurt recruiting? It's purely positive for Penn.

 
besnoah 
Masters Student
Posts: 567

Reg: 12-14-05
Thoughts from a curmudgeon
03-13-17 07:10 AM - Post#226693    
    In response to SomeGuy

Right now, the tournament strikes me as a slightly good thing for Penn because it's at the Palestra. If it moves, it's probably a neutral thing for Penn. That's not a good enough reason, in my mind, to completely, fundamentally alter the structure of the best regular season in sports.

To the idea that taking the opposite side of "never" is the right course of action in the "getting two bids" argument, of course that is correct. But if the best argument pro-tournament people can make is that never is always analytically wrong, that also strikes me as an inadequate reason to fundamentally alter the structure of the best regular season in sports.

Edited by besnoah on 03-13-17 07:11 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
10Q 
Professor
Posts: 11546

Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
03-13-17 07:52 AM - Post#226695    
    In response to besnoah

Ivy Basketball Tourney is an abomination.

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4582

Loc: Jersey City, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
03-13-17 07:54 AM - Post#226696    
    In response to besnoah

After the second selection debacle in a row, I'd pause the tournament until the committee begins to incorporate real, objective metrics. I believe it will have to at some point, as their pervasiveness will force it, but that day is not today, and tomorrow's not looking good either. We have a real shot at a second bid coming up per an objective system, but the horrible anti-mid bias is still very real (after recent years where it was actually improving) and the odds of doing enough to overcome that bias are extremely low.

 
SteveDanley 
Freshman
Posts: 78

Age: 32
Reg: 02-25-12
03-13-17 08:37 AM - Post#226701    
    In response to SomeGuy

I was a bit of a skeptic of the tournament (for arguments plenty of folks have discussed -- high stakes of regular season games, some benefits of being "different", sending best team, and most obviously, the system treated me really well).

But I think this year turned me around a bit. Don't think folks realize how miserable the Ivy Season can be for those essentially eliminated. The one year we were mostly out of it (03-04) we ran more than the other four combined. And it's a lot tougher to stand the bus ride to or from Dartmouth if the season is essentially over.

The fact that almost every team was in it on the last weekend, that guys like Matt Howard (a better player than I ever was) got a chance to play meaningful games at the end of his career, in a packed Palestra (or that Dartmouth seniors felt like they had a chance to sneak in and were hyped for the last weekend) seems very important to me.

The saddest thing about the last 10 years has been how few of our guys have had the same experiences I did when I played. If the Ivy Tournament improves that for many of the current players, I can get on board. Even if I don't think we should hang the banners from the tie years, or my standard for program success is still winning the league and the NCAA tourney bid. The biggest plays of Matt Howard's career (Harvard blocks, end of Princeton w/ both the make to go up two, and the missed free throw) happened as a result of the Ivy Tourney.

Maybe more importantly, guys like Wood/Jones/Silpe who fell out of the rotation got some joy out of the end of the year. People don't realize how demoralizing playing D1 can be -- everyone at home doesn't understand why you're not a star, and if you're not winning it's even worse. I think (after year 1) that the tourney gives more student athletes something positive to mix in with the struggles. And on any D1 team at any time, about half the guys are definitely struggling (outside the rotation) and another half are close (playing but not well, in the doghouse, missed key plays in a loss).

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 242

Age: 45
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: Thoughts from a curmudgeon
03-13-17 08:50 AM - Post#226702    
    In response to Stuart Suss

  • Stuart Suss Said:


I am among the group of fans who do not believe that Penn should be flying a championship banner from 1981 or from 1996. Penn lost playoff games to Princeton those years. If you do not make it to the NCAA tournament, your team should not be commemorating the season. It does not matter how the Ivy League defines co-champions.





This is pretty much the Quinn Epperly school of thought.



 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15436

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Thoughts from a curmudgeon
03-13-17 09:06 AM - Post#226704    
    In response to Go Green

Quinn Epperly?

So are you going to the wedding next week?

https://www.theknot.com/us/brittany-hoffman-a nd-qu...

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 242

Age: 45
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: Thoughts from a curmudgeon
03-13-17 09:29 AM - Post#226708    
    In response to palestra38

  • palestra38 Said:
Quinn Epperly?




Yep. If you don't go undefeated, your season is a failure.

Needless to say, I don't agree.

http://goprincetontigers.blogspot.com/2014/11/defe...

  • palestra38 Said:

So are you going to the wedding next week?

https://www.theknot.com/us/brittany-hoffman-a nd-qu...



Had not heard. Congrats and best wishes to the happy couple!


 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15436

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Thoughts from a curmudgeon
03-13-17 09:42 AM - Post#226711    
    In response to Go Green

Gotta give you credit for re-posting a piece where you get killed by someone who didn't like a post of yours.

Been there. But I wouldn't have remembered Quinn Epperly if you had shown me tapes of his games.

Now if you referenced Keith Elias.....

http://www.si.com/vault/1993/11/15/1298 86/penn-and...

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 3386

Reg: 11-22-04
03-13-17 10:04 AM - Post#226712    
    In response to SteveDanley

steve, could you elaborate on what being out of it for most of the season have to do with running more that year than all 4 years combined?

are you talking about pushing the pace or Dunphy making you do sprints?

also, regarding that "I don't think people realize how miserable..." no, no, I TOTALLY REALIZE THAT. These past 10 years have been so bereft of entertainment, I've enjoyed this season more than any of the past 10, even 2012.

 
mbaprof 
Freshman
Posts: 63

Age: 60
Reg: 12-24-11
03-13-17 10:22 AM - Post#226717    
    In response to SteveDanley

Completely agree with Steve. Talked to Coaches and some of the "role" players after the women's game yesterday, everyone feels good about the second half of the IVY slate of season and putting forth such a good effort and most importantly, excited about next year as I am. If you weren't there on Sat you missed something. League did a very nice job with hospitality/food which was included in the expensive tickets. As this tournament grows, it will become more of an annual event with alums. I had one fly down Sat am with his kid for the games. They had a wonderful time and vow to come back for several games next season.

 
T.P.F.K.A.D.W. 
Masters Student
Posts: 677

Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
Re: Thoughts from a curmudgeon
03-13-17 10:27 AM - Post#226721    
    In response to Go Green

  • Go Green Said:
  • palestra38 Said:
Quinn Epperly?




Yep. If you don't go undefeated, your season is a failure.

Needless to say, I don't agree.

http://goprincetontigers.blogspot.com/2014/11/defe...





I stopped reading the moment I realized "Tiger Blog" was referring to himself in the third person.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15436

Reg: 11-21-04
03-13-17 10:35 AM - Post#226723    
    In response to mbaprof

I hear you, although I think that what we need far more than good treatment for VIPs (mostly those who don't shell out the money all year and do this as a one-timer) is a way to get the students out to this event. The only school with students at the Tournament was Princeton--all the others being on break and in all likelihood, few would have come anyway.

How do we get students interested in Ivy basketball again, given the vast change in student bodies from the period up to the '90s?

 
Streamers 
PhD Student
Posts: 1624
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
03-13-17 10:57 AM - Post#226732    
    In response to caughtinasnare

  • caughtinasnare Said:
I think we're all here because we enjoy basketball, and Penn basketball in particular, yes? Well, in a season when we would not have gotten to see any exciting Penn basketball, we instead did get that opportunity. Likewise was the case for Columbia fans, Yale fans, and arguably Harvard fans. As such, since the whole reason we watch basketball is because we enjoy basketball, especially exciting basketball, the Ivy tournament was immensely successful because that is exactly what it gave us.




Thanks for saving me the trouble of typing these thoughts.

Oh Stu, you really stirred something up here... thanks for that. Needed to be done.

My heart is with you. My contrarian traditional soul loved the idea that we in the Ivies bucked the tournament trend and made the regular season count. Yes, Parcells is right about our record. However, as Steve Danley pointed out, that was only true for the contenders in February.

I hate 1-and-done based teams too, but the power programs that resisted it realized you cannot buck the basic direction of the sport and remain competitive unless the rules change. Sometimes, one needs to accept reality and get on board with the trend.

My head says that, on balance, players, coaches, and fans are better served with this format. It is not without risk, as Princeton found out, but the benefits are real, even if you ignore the fantasy of two bids. That would require the ability to schedule better teams OOC, not happening anytime soon as we know.

What might happen, however, is better opportunities in the non-NCAA post-season. For example, a 14-0 Ivy team that gets upset in the Ivy final, likely becomes a high NIT seed. Not a terrible outcome.

 
T.P.F.K.A.D.W. 
Masters Student
Posts: 677

Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
03-13-17 11:21 AM - Post#226736    
    In response to palestra38

  • palestra38 Said:
How do we get students interested in Ivy basketball again, given the vast change in student bodies from the period up to the '90s?


Win consistently. Our student body is pretty much identical to Duke's (Sorry—I think I just swallowed some vomit.) They don't have too much trouble attracting students to games.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 2804

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
03-13-17 11:31 AM - Post#226737    
    In response to Streamers

I've been conflicted about an Ivy tournament for years and years, but reluctantly concluded that it was worth giving it a try. And while I remain conflicted, I can't deny that having a tournament definitely added a lot to this year's Ivy season for me (and for lots of other fans as well).

It's important to remember that college basketball is (at least in part) an entertainment product. With that in mind, the relevant question to ask is whether the tournament provided a net gain to the entertainment value of Ivy basketball this season. The answer is clearly 'yes.' Furthermore, if you apply that question to the location of the tournament, while I totally sympathize the objections many fans have to it being permanently held at the Palestra, I cannot avoid the conclusion that our venue helps maximize the entertainment value of the event.

Now, if your view is that college BB is not primarily an entertainment product, but rather a crucible in which the characters of young men are forged, then you can throw the previous paragraph out the window, slouch in your Barcalounger next to Stu and mutter things about tradition, mediocrity, coddled youths and Bill Parcells.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 15436

Reg: 11-21-04
03-13-17 11:31 AM - Post#226738    
    In response to T.P.F.K.A.D.W.

Okay, other than being a perennial Top-10 program where there is a long-time waiting list for tickets in a town where nothing else is going on, do you have any realistic suggestions?

Because winning in the Ivies isn't going to do it, unless you're ignoring that Princeton also is way down in attendance.

 
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