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Username Post: 2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra        (Topic#20262)
rbg 
Masters Student
Posts: 525

Reg: 10-20-14
05-11-17 01:04 PM - Post#229227    

http://www.pennathletics.com/news/2018-ivy-league- ...

The Tournament will be March 10 and 11, 2018 at The Palestra, according to the release.

Edited by rbg on 05-11-17 01:04 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 16577

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: 2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
05-11-17 02:01 PM - Post#229230    
    In response to rbg

Which means that we now will have not 2, but 10 months of moaning.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2097

Reg: 11-23-04
05-11-17 02:03 PM - Post#229231    
    In response to palestra38

Screw the Palestra.

Jadwin should now get equal billing, although neither place should be in play.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 16577

Reg: 11-21-04
05-11-17 02:15 PM - Post#229233    
    In response to Tiger69

You win for first moan.

We can agree that the tournament defeats the purpose of the Ivy Agreement.

If there is to be a tournament, there is no other Ivy venue to play it and they aren't going to rent Barclay's

 
Streamers 
PhD Student
Posts: 1862
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
05-11-17 02:39 PM - Post#229236    
    In response to Tiger69

  • Tiger69 Said:
Screw the Palestra.

Jadwin should now get equal billing, although neither place should be in play.



C'mon T-69, talk about sour grapes. If Jadwin were a fit place for the tournament, I'd understand. Now I do love your football stadium. I'm all for holding league events there.

 
rbg 
Masters Student
Posts: 525

Reg: 10-20-14
05-11-17 03:07 PM - Post#229238    
    In response to Streamers

While there were reasons for the league to choose a more neutral location, there are understandable reasons why they have continued to have it at the Palestra.

I was hoping that the league would have found a way to eliminate the four back-to-back games. The people working the games appeared to hit a wall during the Harvard-Yale men's game and were going on fumes by the Harvard-Princeton women's game.

When surveyed, I had suggested a Friday night double-header with the #1 vs #4 women in the first game, followed by the #1 vs #4 men. Then, the two #2 vs #3 games could be played on Saturday with the two finals set for Sunday. This way, the #1 seeds could have gotten an extra day of rest and the staffs would have been more energized for the individual days.

Since the games will again be broadcast by ESPN, it is possible that there was little chance to change the schedule (and, possibly, the venue).

Jonathan Tannenwald has an interview with Robin Harris up at Philly.com, http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/c ollege/...

 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1179

Reg: 02-15-15
05-11-17 03:52 PM - Post#229239    
    In response to rbg

Awesome news. Great decision. Gives the IL the best chance to succeed.

I applaud the AD's and coaches for making the choice.

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4896

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
05-12-17 08:21 AM - Post#229246    
    In response to PennFan10

This is an utter disaster. This decision clearly demonstrates that they weren't looking at any competitive realities of the situation.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 16577

Reg: 11-21-04
05-12-17 08:39 AM - Post#229251    
    In response to mrjames

It's your fault. You supported a tournament and the only good argument for a tournament was to strengthen the Ivy "brand." The only arena to strengthen the Ivy "brand", without question, is the Palestra. So you got what you wanted---if competition was your focus, then the winner of the 14 game tournament EARNED THE NCAA BID, not the winner of a "do-over" tournament.

Love it when someone is hoisted on the ole' petard. What is a petard, anyway?

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 267

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
05-12-17 08:47 AM - Post#229253    
    In response to palestra38

Excellent news! Can't wait!!

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4896

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
05-12-17 08:59 AM - Post#229254    
    In response to palestra38

You're misrepresenting what I said.

I've been very clear through the years that the math for the tourney works if 1) we have a legit shot at a second bid and 2) if we DON'T do something stupid like a non-1-seed hosting. I've written it and even have a podcast explaining it.

Per #1 - we actually do have the teams, but the NCAA Selection Committee is completely incapable of appropriately comparing resumes.

Per #2 - we've done precisely the thing that really effs up the odds here.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 16577

Reg: 11-21-04
05-12-17 09:04 AM - Post#229255    
    In response to mrjames

The "math" may work, but as you correctly note, we are NEVER getting a second pick, albeit that may be a wrong decision objectively.

Meanwhile, the League looks at the only motivating factor for a tournament is branding/money. So there isn't going to be a tournament if it is not at the Palestra.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 267

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
05-12-17 09:05 AM - Post#229256    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:
.

Per #1 - we actually do have the teams, but the NCAA Selection Committee is completely incapable of appropriately comparing resumes.

Per #2 - we've done precisely the thing that really effs up the odds here.



Didn't we all agree that Princeton received a better seed in the NCAA than they would have if the Ivy tournament didn't exist?

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 267

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
05-12-17 09:06 AM - Post#229257    
    In response to palestra38

  • palestra38 Said:
The "math" may work, but as you correctly note, we are NEVER getting a second pick, albeit that may be a wrong decision objectively.




If its happened for the women, it can happen for the men.

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4896

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
05-12-17 10:05 AM - Post#229258    
    In response to Go Green

I believe that Princeton got the last 12 seed, and that had less to do with the Ivy Tourney and more to do with Monmouth losing the MAAC tourney. If Monmouth won the MAAC, Princeton would have been a 13.

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4896

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
05-12-17 10:14 AM - Post#229260    
    In response to palestra38

It depends on whether David Worlock and the NCAA is serious about bringing new metrics into the process. After a few years of seemingly increasing understanding of judging mid-major resumes (2013 being the high water mark with MTSU, Boise St., La Salle and St. Mary's being the First Four, while UK, UVA, Alabama and S. Miss were the top NIT seeds), the recent years have been an absolute bloodbath.

In the context of the latter, it would be nearly impossible for us to get a second bid. If they change the metrics that they look at, however, it would be far more difficult to keep a potential second Ivy team out. Now... do you actually believe that they are going to introduce metrics that are implicitly more favorable to mid majors... do you...? I obviously remain hopeful, but I wouldn't put a high probability on it.

 
Streamers 
PhD Student
Posts: 1862
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
05-12-17 10:17 AM - Post#229261    
    In response to mrjames

I do not see how the venue materially improves the calculus as to the success or failure of the Tournament in economic terms. The back-back scheduling is a bigger issue. We all know there is no other arena in the league that is suitable and the Palestra is most supportive of the branding. I agree one of the neutral sites might make things a bit more 'fair', but anything more than 100 miles from NYC would likely cause attendance to fall below what we had this year.

I wish we had not gone down this road, but now that we have, we need to be realistic about the venue options.

Personally, I think having the first round games at the home of the top 2 seeds makes the most sense, with both men's and women's finals at the Palestra as a doubleheader a couple of days later.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 267

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
05-12-17 10:29 AM - Post#229263    
    In response to Streamers

  • Streamers Said:

with both men's and women's finals at the Palestra as a doubleheader a couple of days later.



If Penn is the #2 seed for either game, the same bellyachers will still be howling.

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4896

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
05-12-17 10:41 AM - Post#229264    
    In response to Go Green

The lack of learning from what happened last year is concerning to me.

If Penn doesn't finish Top 4, I think we see "finals" numbers, or less, for both days this season. So, what they're really doing here is saying, if Penn can finish top 4, we can get big crowds at The Palestra - ramifications on our tourney win odds be damned.

That's a pretty ridiculous abdication of the responsibility that comes along with administering a league event.

It was worth experimenting with this format, but now that we see what the league's priorities are and have more information on the current college basketball landscape vis a vis the NCAA Tournament, I'm no longer on board. As I presumed from the start, the much, much, much better thing for the league would have been to keep the game AND go every year MTE rather than mishandle a tourney and put it in a format that is more likely to have real costs.

 
Streamers 
PhD Student
Posts: 1862
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
05-12-17 12:38 PM - Post#229277    
    In response to mrjames

I think you have nailed it in the sense that the motives and priorities for the tournament were not altogether clear. I still think the different constituencies within the league (players, coaches, administrations, fans, etc.) have divergent views on this. I also agree that the extra game and the MTE are more valuable.

I'm not even sure how important having a sizeable gate is. The revenue is mostly about TV. That said, if we have to do this thing, best to leave it with us in Philly unless someone can come up with a demonstrably better option.

 
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