Untitled Document
Brown Columbia Cornell Dartmouth Harvard Penn Princeton Yale



 Page 2 of 5 <2345
Username Post: 2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra        (Topic#20262)
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3114

Reg: 02-04-06
2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
05-12-17 02:03 PM - Post#229279    
    In response to mrjames

The pleasures of I Told You So are considerably reduced by the crappiness of the outcome. Remember:

1) The incentives of the NCAA basketball people are clear, and they are to favor major conferences and major-conference teams in assigning bids. Their plan is working; good mid-majors are fleeing their conferences to shore up the TV money for the big boys. It's like relegation without the fairness (let's see how Northern Iowa fares in the MVC without Wichita State, which learned its lesson and jumped to the AAC.)

2) The Ivy League is in an even worse position for a second bid, given the common knowledge that coaches and ADs will not be fired for failing to be invited.

3) There was ample evidence from other conferences that mid-major tourneys only draw fans and enthusiasm if games are played on the courts of the participants.

4) There was ample evidence that mid-major tourneys don't generate significant attention either inside or outside the conference fan base, especially net of the lost attention to regular-season games.

5) It was obvious that the Ivies' funky, contrarian old school way generated a lot of free publicity and branding for the league outside the fan base.

6) It was also obvious that the new format made the regular-season battle among the best teams irrelevant to most fans, diverting most attention away from the league's top teams.

7) Finally, there was never any question of the league displaying competence in siting, scheduling, or promoting a conference tournament. Instead we got a senseless idee fixe about using the more-popular men's games to promote the less-popular women's games, even at the cost of competitive fairness and quality.

The only good news is that Quaker fans will again have a chance to watch their team blow a golden opportunity to steal an undeserved bid.

Edited by SRP on 05-12-17 02:05 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 261

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: 2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
05-12-17 02:45 PM - Post#229280    
    In response to SRP

  • SRP Said:

5) It was obvious that the Ivies' funky, contrarian old school way generated a lot of free publicity and branding for the league outside the fan base.




The same could be said for keeping the football teams out of postseason play. Yet, the "free publicity" is mostly negative. We get derided, not applauded for our "funky, contrarian, old school way" in football.

We will agree to disagree whether the opposite was happening with respect to basketball in the pre-tournament days.



 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2042

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: 2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
05-13-17 05:50 AM - Post#229289    
    In response to Go Green

Solution:

Have the damn tourney games played on the home courts of the favorites as they, rightly, should be.

For the benefit of TV, photoshop the background stands and fans from any rabid, sold out venue (Colbert crowd in Ed Sullivan Theatre?). The tourney is just show business anyway.

You're welcome.

 
Go Green 
Junior
Posts: 261

Age: 46
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: 2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
05-13-17 10:37 AM - Post#229292    
    In response to Tiger69

  • Tiger69 Said:
Solution:

Have the damn tourney games played on the home courts of the favorites as they, rightly, should be.


You're welcome.



Once again, you're ignoring the league's preference that the men's and women's tournament be held at the same venue.

As soon as the league says that it doesn't care about having the men's and women's tourneys at the same venue, then we can talk about the higher seed hosting games. Until then, the options are 1) an Ivy court or 2) some other neutral court.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2042

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: 2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
05-13-17 12:45 PM - Post#229293    
    In response to Go Green

Hey, you deleted the most important part of the post!

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3114

Reg: 02-04-06
05-13-17 07:00 PM - Post#229298    
    In response to Tiger69

We're objecting to the league's preference, saying it is not worth the cost, etc. It's silly to defend it by reference to itself.

 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1040

Reg: 02-15-15
05-14-17 10:01 AM - Post#229306    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:
This is an utter disaster. This decision clearly demonstrates that they weren't looking at any competitive realities of the situation.



Like the fact that Harvard is the presumptive favorite this year? your current distaste for the tourney, while supported by the math, comes at a convenient time for Crimson fans.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9424

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: 2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
05-14-17 10:18 AM - Post#229307    
    In response to Go Green

  • Go Green Said:

The same could be said for keeping the football teams out of postseason play.




This. No-one from Harvard or Yale really has any standing to complain about basketball as long as the status quo in football continues.


 
section110 
Masters Student
Posts: 724

Loc: south jersey
Reg: 11-22-04
Re: 2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
05-14-17 11:36 AM - Post#229308    
    In response to penn nation

AMEN

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3114

Reg: 02-04-06
05-14-17 12:55 PM - Post#229310    
    In response to section110

While we're at it, nobody can complain about poor Saturday refereeing until the Ivies let football go postseason.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 9424

Reg: 12-02-04
05-14-17 01:16 PM - Post#229313    
    In response to SRP

And we can throw in discussion of AI and financial aid packages while we're at it. Those who are truly looking for "competitive balance" must acknowledge a whole host of factors (here's looking at you, H-Y-P) that come into play.

 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3272

Reg: 11-23-04
05-14-17 04:00 PM - Post#229320    
    In response to penn nation

Amen, PN!

 
westphillywarrior 
Sophomore
Posts: 138

Age: 36
Reg: 01-08-11
05-14-17 09:55 PM - Post#229323    
    In response to Old Bear

All who are happy about having the tournament back at the Palestra should send Matt Howard a thank you note.

My best guess is that if we had beaten Princeton the league would have had to do the right thing and find a neutral court for next year.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4164

Reg: 11-22-04
05-14-17 10:30 PM - Post#229324    
    In response to mrjames

Mike, I always respect your opinions, and I acknowledge you've got more lots more info than I do as to what is going on in terms of incentives and future plans, but . . . Is this really the end of the world? My Penn fandom may have played into it, but I had a great time with the tournament, and I liked the way the league worked on the branding. The league has a great venue that is part of the brand -- is playing that up really so bad, even if it has some competitive impact? Do we know that doing it the same way in 2018 is indicative of what will be done once the tournament is more established? And while I am cautiously optimistic about Penn's chances of competing next year, they did have to struggle and get a little lucky just yo sneak in as the 4 last year. It may be a little easier next year, but Penn is unlikely to make the jump to the level where the advantage becomes a huge issue for the league. i'm selfishly excited about another year where I don't have to hit the road significantly to watch the tournament.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2042

Reg: 11-23-04
05-15-17 04:24 AM - Post#229325    
    In response to penn nation

PN: Cough up a little cash to Old UP and maybe you won't need the special athletic scholarships. I heard that Old Warton has a few wealthy alums although, in good taste, I shall not mention any names.

 
section110 
Masters Student
Posts: 724

Loc: south jersey
Reg: 11-22-04
05-15-17 09:28 AM - Post#229326    
    In response to Tiger69

Your Tiger in the Senate got schooled in his area of expertise by Sally Yates.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 2869

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
05-15-17 10:12 AM - Post#229327    
    In response to SomeGuy

  • SomeGuy Said:
The league has a great venue that is part of the brand -- is playing that up really so bad, even if it has some competitive impact? Do we know that doing it the same way in 2018 is indicative of what will be done once the tournament is more established? And while I am cautiously optimistic about Penn's chances of competing next year, they did have to struggle and get a little lucky just yo sneak in as the 4 last year. It may be a little easier next year, but Penn is unlikely to make the jump to the level where the advantage becomes a huge issue for the league.



I think you're probably right about the coming season. However, look at how ambitiously Penn is recruiting. By my count they're recruiting eight 2018 players who are rated at 3.5* or higher. There's probably a pretty decent chance they'll get at least one of those guys. Donahue's a good coach. If he's able to bring in the kind of talent he's currently pursuing, he's going to have a team that's fully competitive with HYP within a couple of years. Once that's the case, I think it's going to be difficult to have the Palestra continue be the home for the conference tournament. I doubt we'll hear any squawking from players, coaches or ADs regarding tournament #2, but after that it's likely to become an issue.


 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4718

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
05-15-17 11:07 AM - Post#229328    
    In response to Silver Maple

There's a lot here to dig into. It's worth noting that FA really isn't that big of a deal between HYP and P anymore, and certainly Penn has a big advantage in the AI that will be decreased a bit for the upcoming class, assuming the floor raise went through as planned. There will just be less space for Penn to fish for multiple players where HYP can really only grab one, if that.

Homecourt is a pretty massive advantage relative to having the higher seed host (7-8 points) and still a sizeable advantage relative to a neutral floor (3.5-4 pts). You could think of it as if Team A was even with Team B on Team B's home floor and would be a 7-8 point favorite over Team B on its own home floor that it would be 50/50 to win at Team B, but around 75% to beat Team B at home and about 60% on a neutral floor.

What's more is that we've seen this exact scenario play out in other one-bid tournaments - most notably the AmEast. Albany picked off the 1-seed as a four two years in a row and the 2 as a 7 another time it got to host the pre-finals. Those two 1-over-4s finally convinced the AmEast to abandon the one-site prelim round and move those to campus sites, before the higher seed hosted the final. To pretend like that almost just didn't happen to us last year was insane and at this point I wish it had.

My hope is that the folks on the competitive side will respond to being fooled by the league and not be so kind and deferential in public statements now that the league has demonstrated that competitive concerns are secondary to finding an easy solution.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 16013

Reg: 11-21-04
05-15-17 12:04 PM - Post#229330    
    In response to mrjames

I agree that there is a competitive disadvantage. But if the focus of the League is branding and and some form of national attention, you can't say that this is any kind of mistake as long as Harvard and Yale get to use "The Game" as a season-ending alternative to playoff football.

If one changes, so should the other.

 
Stuart Suss 
Masters Student
Posts: 837

Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
05-15-17 12:29 PM - Post#229331    
    In response to palestra38

<<It's worth noting that [Financial Aid] really isn't that big of a deal between HYP and P anymore>>

Mike James,
1. What is your proof of that claim?
2. Has anyone on the Penn men's or women's coaching staff acknowledged the accuracy of that claim or is that merely the assertion of sources at Harvard (or Yale or Princeton)?


 
 Page 2 of 5 <2345
Icon Legend Permissions Topic Options
Report Post

Quote Post

Quick Reply

Print Topic

Email Topic

2761 Views




Copyright © 2004-2012 Basketball U. Terms of Use for our Site and Privacy Policy are applicable to you. All rights reserved.
Basketball U. and its subsidiaries are not affiliated in any way with any NCAA athletic conference or member institution.
FusionBB™ Version 2.1 | ©2003-2007 InteractivePHP, Inc.
Execution time: 0.097 seconds.   Total Queries: 16   Zlib Compression is on.
All times are (GMT -0500) Eastern. Current time is 08:51 AM
Top