TheLine
Professor
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Age: 60
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12-20-17 12:55 PM - Post#240767
In response to SRP
Agree.
Options are limited. The Palestra (and maybe Jadwin if you squint) is the only tournament capable arena in the league - and I get why that's a perceived problem. Mohegan Sun would be a better choice if it wasn't a casino. I'm less thrilled with other options like the AC Convention Center or Bridgeport.
I'm not sure where that leaves us.
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Okoro Dude
Senior
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Loc: Glen Mills, PA
Reg: 11-24-04
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12-20-17 04:37 PM - Post#240819
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Chirp . . .Chirp . . .Chirp.
The sound of crickets being heard above the noise of the players coaches and families attending an Ivy tournament at the Mohegun Sun.
If they could only get 3,000 - 5,000 for sessions in Philly at the Palestra, it will be less than half of that crowd in the middle of nowhere in Connecticut.
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section110
Masters Student
Posts: 847
Loc: south jersey
Reg: 11-22-04
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12-21-17 10:35 AM - Post#240897
In response to TheLine
Trenton & Bethlehem/Allentown have reasonably sized arenas; but, I'm not sure they are better choices.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
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Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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12-21-17 11:51 AM - Post#240930
In response to Okoro Dude
That’s blind to the realities. Other than Penn fans and possibly Princeton fans, Mohegan Sun is more convenient for the six other schools - that’s over 75% of the fans. Had Penn not made the tournament the Palestra would have seemed empty.
Also, it was freezing that weekend. Would have been much more welcoming and sociable to be able to stay inside and enjoy the restaurants, entertainment and Free parking Mohegan Sun has to offer.
The Ivy League cobbled together a series of out of the way, somewhat hidden spaces for fans of ‘visiting’ teams. The one I attended had maybe 40 attendees in lobby at the end of some labyrinthian journey. Some Ivy gathering. No mingling whatsoever. Finding parking was difficult and overpriced as well. Open your eyes to the reality of what really transpired. Except for Penn’s fans, it was a non-event.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
12-21-17 12:01 PM - Post#240933
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
That’s blind to the realities. Other than Penn fans and possibly Princeton fans, Mohegan Sun is more convenient for the six other schools - that’s over 75% of the fans.
The very questionable assumption here being that each school's fan base is identical in size.
I've argued here before that Bridgeport is probably the best compromise. It's an excellent venue for starters. Great modern place to see a basketball game--this is no high school gym. Right off I-95 and with easy access to Metro North so a decent chunk of the fan base could commute to the games from home or work. And somewhat more centrally located than Mohegan Sun (to be sure a nice place, having stayed there with Mrs Nation).
Edited by penn nation on 12-21-17 12:03 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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TheLine
Professor
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Age: 60
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12-21-17 12:24 PM - Post#240938
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
That’s blind to the realities. Other than Penn fans and possibly Princeton fans, Mohegan Sun is more convenient for the six other schools - that’s over 75% of the fans. Had Penn not made the tournament the Palestra would have seemed empty.
Reality is that Mohegan Sun is more convenient to only 4 of the schools (Columbia and I think also Cornell is closer to Philly). The rest of your points are highly speculative.
A big reason for the tournament is to market the league to a national audience. I don't think a Mohegan Sun tournament is the best way to do that - and that's a minus for having a tournament there.
I don't think there's an optimal solution. It's part of the reason why The Palestra will be the host again. All choices - Palestra, host at #1 seed, Mohegan Sun, Bridgeport, etc. - have their flaws. I think the best approach is a tournament that rotates among several host arenas meeting certain criteria - being able to seat at least 4-5K, adequate accessibility to hotels, reasonably located.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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12-21-17 01:32 PM - Post#240959
In response to TheLine
The place needs a reasonably large, round bar where h, P and penn fans can safely hurl insults at each other with yale fans (if any exist) seated in a small side booth. Old Bear will serve the drinks and provide sage and neutral commentary.ðŸ…
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TheLine
Professor
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Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
12-21-17 01:40 PM - Post#240963
In response to Tiger69
That's the flip side pro-Mohegan Sun argument.
When the tourney is hosted at the Palestra, go to Smokes if you want to hurl arguments. Or just want to hurl.
Edited by TheLine on 12-21-17 01:42 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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JadwinGeorge
Senior
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Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
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12-21-17 04:43 PM - Post#240981
In response to TheLine
I don't get the casino objection. If the food's good, lots of parking and rooms are available in sufficient number what's the beef? Gino Auriemma has a restaurant there for goodness sake. And there are plenty of college games there all year. As long as the tournament hosts 8 teams the options are few. The Penn at home argument holds less water this year because the four teams that get in won't be that far apart as was the case when the Quakers got in last season
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3992
Reg: 11-23-04
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12-21-17 05:59 PM - Post#240984
In response to Tiger69
The place needs a reasonably large, round bar where h, P and penn fans can safely hurl insults at each other with yale fans (if any exist) seated in a small side booth. Old Bear will serve the drinks and provide sage and neutral commentary.ðŸ…
The Director of Marketing at MS is a Brown Grad and former manager of the Men's BB team, I am sure that he will make all of the Ivy visitors welcome and I am sure that he will provide a round table and a (very) small side booth.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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12-21-17 06:12 PM - Post#240986
In response to Old Bear
JG, there isn't a logistical objection as much as an image one. IL wants to project wholesome, historic, high-minded at this tourney. They haven't evolved to the ESPN level of finding gambling an amusing foible to be mentioned alongside sports.
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JadwinGeorge
Senior
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Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
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12-21-17 06:56 PM - Post#240989
In response to SRP
I think that ship, sadly, has sailed. The Ivy League's "high mindedness" has taken a back seat to a host of other considerations as far as basketball is concerned. Once the powers who run things decided on a conference tourney it marked the end of the line for the older generation who regarded the 14 game tournament as the ideal. I think the "tax reform" bill is nothing more than a reward for the GOP donor class, but I'm not going to send any $$$ I get back to DC. You don't have to like the tournament but you might as well adjust to reality.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
12-21-17 07:09 PM - Post#240990
In response to JadwinGeorge
JG, I'm afraid you're confusing substance and image. You may well be correct substantively about the impact of the conference tournament.
But from an image point of view, Robin Harris and the league have been focused on using the tournament to get attention and "brand" the league as the classy, rooted-in-tradition, yet exciting and up-to-date place (gender equity at the tourney!) for the smart player to attend. They loved the whole "palace of basketball" stuff about the Palestra last year and played into that fawning coverage as much as possible. A louche casino setting surrounded by video-poker machines and slots methodically milking hordes of degenerate gamblers just doesn't do that job.
Mike assures us that we will not be in the Palestra next year, and I bet he's right. I have trouble believing that the venue will be a casino, however. But if wrong, I will happily admit to not perceiving the situation and its constraints correctly.
Edited by SRP on 12-21-17 07:10 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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12-21-17 07:29 PM - Post#240991
In response to SRP
Green, white, crimson, red, light blue, blue, brown, orange and black. Think of the exotic home team cocktail possibilities if the Tourney is staged in a casino! More fun than a Herbert Alyea chemistry lecture.
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JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts: 357
Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
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Re: 2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
12-21-17 08:11 PM - Post#240993
In response to SRP
Steve, believe me when I say that I hope you are correct. I have no desire to see the tournament go to a "louche"(love that) venue, but I am somewhat cynical about the administrators' objectives. Where else could they go for the first edition? If the tourney continues as an eight team event, where can they go other than to Jadwin? Any non-league arena serves a lot of commercial purposes, but no high minded ones.
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bradley
PhD Student
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Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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12-21-17 10:39 PM - Post#241000
In response to Streamers
The stated objectives for the IL Tournament was to "showcase" IL BB and provide the student athletes with an enhanced personal experience. I suspect that it is more one vs. two. If one wants to showcase the league where would you hold a tournament? With that criteria, the Palestra gets the edge over Mohegan Sun or Bridgeport. If the criteria, also included fairness, the tournament would not be held at the Palestra. If the criteria was showcase and fairness, it would be held at a location like Madison Square Garden or possibly the Barclay Center but the ACC, Big East and actually the Big Ten will be at these two sites in 2018 so there really is no location that meets showcase and fairness criteria therefore there is an argument to go back to the Palestra. If Penn wins due to homecourt advantage, it will be somewhat tarnished but .... I have always wondered if the IL Tournament Committee really thought thru all of the issues like this one in depth -- I have my doubts. Last year was almost the perfect (disastrous) storm but the IL Tournament Committee dodged the bullet.
At the end of the day, I personally do not care about the location of the IL Tournament as it has no relevance to my fandom, albeit a limited one, as I am only interested in who wins the regular season. Fortunately, it appears that the league will be very competitive and we should see some great battles although perhaps not high quality BB this year but let's hope that teams improve.
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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12-21-17 11:16 PM - Post#241003
In response to TheLine
Reality is that Mohegan Sun is more convenient to only 4 of the schools (Columbia and I think also Cornell is closer to Philly).
Columbia and Cornell are indeed closer to Philly (though Columbia isn't much closer.) One should also keep in mind that large parts of the fan bases don't actually live in the colleges' home towns. For anyone living in North Jersey or even Brooklyn, Philly is much more convenient; even for Westchester, Philly isn't that much worse, and, of course for anyone south of Philly (Baltimore, Washington, etc.), it's no contest. Flying in from farther away? The Palestra is a 20-minute train ride from a really big airport; Mohegan Sun is an hour drive from two smaller fields (Bradley and T. F. Green).
I'd also be more persuaded that being closer to other schools would make a difference if their fans could actually drag their butts across campus for their own home games. To give the most obvious example, Harvard has gone from planning a new arena with 800 more seats than Lavietes to taking 560 seats out of Lavietes They only sold out four of the seven Ivy games last year. Yale has only managed to sell all of their 2,532 chairs twice in the last two years (you know who that was for.) Six out of the eight Ivy teams lost attendance in the league season last year. The folks on the Voy board complain all the time about how football attendance is collapsing, and many advocate various measures to improve the quality of play, including scheduling higher-echelon teams. Well, Ivy hoops is doing just that, and attendance is still falling. This points to a lot bigger problem than where we're going to have the tournament.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts: 357
Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
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12-22-17 09:33 AM - Post#241008
In response to dperry
Well done, DP. I am usually able to get in to Jadwin without buying a ticket. I frequently sit in the seat I purchased in a season ticket package for years four rows behind the Tiger bench. I would estimate the entire section is less than half filled, although that may change during Ivy play. On the other hand, at 70 I am one of the younger fans in that section. The student section is rarely occupied and many of those attendees are athletes who have been working out in other parts of the building. I often wonder why basketball no longer draws. As a rather passionate fan it is very difficult to understand. I watched Harvard and Boston U last night. Lots of empty seats there, too, although that won't be the case when the Tigers are in town. I love to go to that game because of the atmosphere in a full house...nothing like it.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
12-22-17 10:43 AM - Post#241013
In response to JadwinGeorge
We've discussed this at length on the Penn Board---the student bodies of Ivy schools are completely different from the 1970s, when the schools had a primarily male, New England - Mid Atlantic majority who grew up in the heyday of broadcast sports. Today's student body is international, majority female with no such background in spectator sports and if they do, it's in terms of fantasy leagues and big time college basketball and football available to them on their devices at all times. Peloton is more of an attraction than attending a game. Penn has exacerbated the bad situation by being bad for 10 years and by doing so, lost what student fan base it had. But the comments about Princeton's home fans being over 70 cuts pretty close to the mark----all the devoted alumni are aging and the students over the past 10 years or so will not be replacing us. I don't know how that can change, nor do I believe a conference tournament will change the demographics that are responsible for the declining interest.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: 2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
12-22-17 11:14 AM - Post#241017
In response to palestra38
On those increasingly rare occasions that I can get back to Jadwin for a game I can always find a nice seat in the reserved South Stand near mid court with my GA ticket (among my fellow well-aged Tigers). That's one of the reasons I miss the electric atmosphere of Dillon (and even Jadwin in those first few seasons in the late 60s). I was disappointed by the way the U botched its one return to Dillon a couple of seasons back by not even opening up all the seats (2,800+-).ðŸ™
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