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Username Post: 2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra        (Topic#20262)
JadwinGeorge 
Junior
Posts: 285

Age: 70
Reg: 12-04-15
Re: 2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
12-22-17 12:15 PM - Post#241028    
    In response to palestra38

And yet, the League is promoting basketball, men's and women's, nationally, a development we should support regardless of our feelings about the tournament. The January 5 league opener may be the biggest game so far in the SD era. I would love to see The Cathedral packed to the rafters. If you get a taste of what that is like you'll want to come back!

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 20031

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: 2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
12-22-17 12:19 PM - Post#241032    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

I'll be there, of course. I don't think students from either school, who still are on break, are likely to be there in any great number.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1275

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
12-22-17 12:20 PM - Post#241033    
    In response to Tiger69

Lavietes will be full all Ivy season. Last home game vs UMass was sold out. Last final exam was Tuesday (12/19) and all students were supposed to be out of the dorms by day before the BU game. Stands looked rather full on ILDN.

Yale and Princeton games are sold out and there is only 1 bleacher seat left for Penn. A quick look suggests there are roughly 250 seats left for sale for the entire Ivy season.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2286

Reg: 11-23-04
12-22-17 12:53 PM - Post#241036    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

A bit off topic: as I lie here in Mexico awaiting another Ivy season with fond memories of past seasons, I have just completed an extraordinary book which I recommend especially to my friends out there with a little time on their hands: A Gentleman In Moscow by Amor Towles. Some of us older guys will relate strongly to its themes. Read anything that you want into that.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 20031

Reg: 11-21-04
12-22-17 01:03 PM - Post#241037    
    In response to Tiger69

Thanks....just about to go on vacation and always appreciate a recommendation for a good read.

 
Okoro Dude 
Junior
Posts: 297

Loc: Glen Mills, PA
Reg: 11-24-04
01-04-18 02:26 PM - Post#242019    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

That's the point. The teams are only marginally supported in terms of attendance even when they play on campus. The only reason there were 5,000 at last year's semi-final is because there were 3,000 Penn fans and a sizeable number of Princeton fans that were in the area. Hosting this in a casino in Connecticut (or likely any suitable arena other than MSG) likely means almost zero attendance. These teams just don't have large dedicated fan bases that will travel for a two-day tournament. You need at least one "host" team to sell tickets to its fans to have a respectable crowd.

FYI - as much as I enjoy the tournament in my home (and inarguably the best in Ivies) gym, I freely acknowledge the fairness factor and can see why the league might want to rotate to regular season champion's gym. But, by then, you might as well scrap the whole 2-day tourney concept and just put on the lame
Wed/Sat tournament all at campus sites.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1275

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
01-04-18 02:37 PM - Post#242022    
    In response to Okoro Dude

Based on your assumptions, 3,000 Penn fans get to enjoy their team at home, and other Ivy fans don't travel, so this is just a (meaningful) home game for Penn.

No other school has a right to that? About as unfair and prohibitive to 87.5% (competition) and 75% (travel) of other Ivy Leaguers.

Argues for rotating hosting among participants, or maybe even assigning to top seed - if timing and logistics permit - which they likely don't.

 
westphillywarrior 
Sophomore
Posts: 178

Age: 38
Reg: 01-08-11
01-04-18 03:09 PM - Post#242024    
    In response to Okoro Dude

Pre-tournament, all of the Ivy playoff games I can remember were packed gyms at neutral sites.

I think one big problem last year was a huge amount of anti-tournament feeling. A lot of fans just didn't want to support the thing by attending.

I don't like the the tournament (hate it actually), but if it has to be then it shouldn't be played on anyone's unearned home court. Should be neutral court or home court(s) earned during the regular season.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 20031

Reg: 11-21-04
01-04-18 03:18 PM - Post#242026    
    In response to westphillywarrior

But we know that "fairness" had nothing to do with the decision to play the tournament--if fairness were the issue, then the regular season champion would continue to represent the Ivies. This was all about branding and strengthening the brand. It's getting us coverage in media and TV and the only place adequate for showing us in the best light is the Palestra, of which almost all college basketball fans are familiar despite being unable to name a single Ivy basketball player. Despite what was initially promoted, it was not about a great Ivy Kumbaya--indeed, they made it almost impossible for students and alumni of different schools to socialize with the schedule they created.

So let's be honest--it was all about showcasing the Ivies in their best and most well known facility in a big city. And on that they succeeded and in all likelihood, will not do so if the games are played elsewhere. I say that in full recognition that it is unfair and should not be done this way. But then again, the entire Ivy structure is "not fair" and needs to be renegotiated.

 
JadwinGeorge 
Junior
Posts: 285

Age: 70
Reg: 12-04-15
01-04-18 03:42 PM - Post#242027    
    In response to palestra38

The only way to have the tournament at the #1 seed's arena is to alternate between the women one year and the men the next. If anything is clear about the tournament it is that the 8 top teams play in two days. I do not necessarily agree that fans will not travel when NCAA bids are at stake but there may not be enough fans to fill any arena with more than 5000 seats.

 
JadwinGeorge 
Junior
Posts: 285

Age: 70
Reg: 12-04-15
01-04-18 03:47 PM - Post#242028    
    In response to westphillywarrior

The Harvard-Yale playoff a couple of years ago was at The Palestra and was very well attended although I don't know the actual number. That may be one of the factors in the decision to hold the first two tournaments there. The Penn-Princeton playoffs were usually at Lehigh, as I recall, and the joint was rocking.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 20031

Reg: 11-21-04
01-04-18 03:59 PM - Post#242031    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

Yes, the Harvard-Yale game was a near sellout (although Penn fans bought a lot of those tickets) but again, it was a single game for the rightful title for men's basketball and the ticket price was less than half of what they charged for the 2 day event last year. Indeed, they could sell out the tournament if they reduced the price closer to what Ivy games normally go for.

And to risk upsetting those who rightfully enjoy women's basketball, putting the two together destroys the ability to fill the place up and get everyone together since the men's games are spread out and everyone attends for the men's games. I do not believe it is a good idea to play the two together, unless you have a women's doubleheader in the morning and a men's doubleheader in the late afternoon and evening.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3591

Reg: 02-04-06
01-04-18 06:22 PM - Post#242041    
    In response to palestra38

The idee fixe about putting the women in with the men certainly created some unfortunate tradeoffs in scheduling and seemed to disrupt the intense atmosphere that either would generate on its own. But I doubt that the powers that be will get off that particular hobby-horse.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 855

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
01-04-18 06:32 PM - Post#242042    
    In response to palestra38

If MRJames is correct and the game is moved from the Palestra next year, it would make one wonder if the intent of the IL tournament was to showcase the league if it is moved to a less prestigious location. If the IL Tournament stays at the Palestra, no current AD/Head Coach/ or Administrator should complain regarding the fairness issue as they voted for it and that includes Coach Henderson and the Princeton AD -- fans can obviously legitimately complain about the fairness issue.

Conversely, if they move the tournament next year to Jadwin, Boston, Mohegan Sun or God knows where, Penn should never complain if they win the regular season and then lose on someone else's home court or another location. Finally, if Brown/Columbia or someone else wins the IL regular season and then loses at somebody else's location, you would think that there should be silence from the universities.

In all likelihood, some fans will be ticked off no matter what happens this year, next year or beyond.

Going into this year, there are 4 possibly 5 or 6 teams that could win the IL regular season but we will find out who gets the NCAA bid within 24 hours in March -- simply brilliant.

 
dperry 
PhD Student
Posts: 1106
dperry
Loc: Oreland, PA
Reg: 11-24-04
01-04-18 08:04 PM - Post#242048    
    In response to westphillywarrior

  • westphillywarrior Said:
Pre-tournament, all of the Ivy playoff games I can remember were packed gyms at neutral sites.




The H-Y playoff three years ago drew 5,256, which is about 60% full; however, one could argue that that compares favorably with last year's semifinal attendance of 6,209, given that a.) the playoff had only one week's notice, b.) the tournament had three more men's teams and seven more overall, and c.) Penn wasn't involved in the playoff. Last year's final attendance was only 3,833, way worse than the playoff. The first playoff in '02 between Princeton and Yale only got 2,000-something, but that was on a weeknight with two days' notice, and the Princeton fans pretty clearly saw the writing on the wall; they just had no enthusiasm whatsoever.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
dperry 
PhD Student
Posts: 1106
dperry
Loc: Oreland, PA
Reg: 11-24-04
01-04-18 08:28 PM - Post#242052    
    In response to palestra38

  • palestra38 Said:
This was all about branding and strengthening the brand. It's getting us coverage in media and TV and the only place adequate for showing us in the best light is the Palestra, of which almost all college basketball fans are familiar despite being unable to name a single Ivy basketball player. . . So let's be honest--it was all about showcasing the Ivies in their best and most well known facility in a big city. And on that they succeeded and in all likelihood, will not do so if the games are played elsewhere.



I don't agree that they succeeded even in that. As noted in the previous post, the attendances were ordinary on the first day and poor on the second. Two years ago, Yale's clinching the championship, in a rather ordinary pennant race, got far more love in the media than Princeton's winning the final did last year--and, of course, there had been plenty of comment about the Ivy race throughout the entire league season--something that was notably lacking last year. Heck, the two recent wins by the Penn WOMEN over Princeton in the last game of the regular season got about as much attention as the men's final did last year. I don't know what the TV ratings for the men were, but given that they were on an inferior network and going up against considerably more popular games, it's hard to believe that they were all that great. This year, two of the three games will be on the Deuce, so we'll see what happens, but I still don't think it'll be all that great. If they really want to get attention, they need to move the entire schedule up a week and play it on the next-to-last weekend of the season, when the Power 5 isn't sucking all of the air out of the room.

Speaking of scheduling, I'll also note that, checking the academic calendars, once again four of the eight schools (Ca, H, Pa, Y) will be beginning or ending their spring breaks that weekend. At Dartmouth, it's right in the middle of exams, and at Princeton, it's right before midterms. Cornell is unlikely to make either cut; Brown is likely only in the women's. There goes what little student attendance you could expect.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
dperry 
PhD Student
Posts: 1106
dperry
Loc: Oreland, PA
Reg: 11-24-04
01-04-18 09:03 PM - Post#242055    
    In response to palestra38

  • palestra38 Said:

And to risk upsetting those who rightfully enjoy women's basketball, putting the two together destroys the ability to fill the place up and get everyone together since the men's games are spread out and everyone attends for the men's games. I do not believe it is a good idea to play the two together, unless you have a women's doubleheader in the morning and a men's doubleheader in the late afternoon and evening.



In fairness, the men's games actually were together last year, so I don't see that it had much effect there one way or another. Of course, this year they are doing the opposite of what you suggested, with the men playing in the afternoon and the women in the evening. I've already noted that I think this will increase the friends-and-fam attendance for the women, since it'll be closer together and it allows a women's'-only ticket package, but it'll probably kill any other attendance, since only Tiger69, OldBear, maybe a couple of other P sickos, and myself will be sticking around for the women's games. The problem with your plan is that the men's final has to start by 1 to guarantee that it will end in time for the NCAA selection. Playing the men's semifinals in the evening means a short turn around, particularly for the winner of the second game.

I also think that the whole "Ivy get-together" thing is overrated. Yes, if we ever have a Basketball U meetup, I'll be there, but I don't have that much interest in meeting generic Brown or Harvard fans, and I doubt they have much interest in meeting me either. People are much more likely to want to go out and get some dinner with their friends or whatever. Now it is true that people will want to get together with other fans of their own teams, and the Palestra may not be well equipped for that, although with some thought a better job could probably be done than last year.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
dperry 
PhD Student
Posts: 1106
dperry
Loc: Oreland, PA
Reg: 11-24-04
01-04-18 09:13 PM - Post#242057    
    In response to SRP

  • SRP Said:
The idee fixe about putting the women in with the men certainly created some unfortunate tradeoffs in scheduling and seemed to disrupt the intense atmosphere that either would generate on its own. But I doubt that the powers that be will get off that particular hobby-horse.



Well, one wishes that they would get off of it, particularly since very few other conferences do it that way, and none of the bigger conferences do, where the women actually have followers. Granted, the other conferences have much larger tournaments and the logistics would be difficult, but still. . . if we're going to continue this stupid thing, the women's tournament should be held at the regular-season winner. I think that would actually allow more focus on the women then at present, and it would also increase the chances of a good crowd.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
TigerFan 
PhD Student
Posts: 1139

Reg: 11-21-04
2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
01-04-18 10:00 PM - Post#242063    
    In response to dperry

1) I hate the tournament.

2) I enjoyed last year's tournament at the Palestra but only because the Tigers won it. I would have been royally urinated if the Tigers had lost to the Quakers on Penn's home court given the regular season performances of the two teams.

3) If there has to be a tournament, the regular season champ should host the thing and I don't give a fig if that means splitting men's and women's tournaments (as is done in some other Ivy sports with post-season tournaments).

4) I'm old enough to remember when Jadwin hosted NCAA games and the playoffs for the old ECAC Metro. It was a great venue for those events, although Jadwin used to have much larger end stands on the sides with seating that was more comfortable than the current end stand bleachers. I believe capacity was nearly 8,000 back then (and it used to sell out occassionally) but even in slightly diminished form, the current capacity is more than adequate to host an Ivy basketball tournament.

5) The 2011 Princeton-Harvard playoff at Payne Whitney was thrilling and the gym's capacity of only 2,500 (?) made it all the more exciting. The gym was split 50:50 right up the middle, making it one of the most interesting sporting events I've ever attended. That game received 50 times more media coverage than last year's Ivy tournament (granted Doug Davis' last second shot was the reason).

6) Even if Dartmouth were to win the league, I'd still have them host the tournament (if it persists), because they would have earned it. It wouldn't be the end of the world if they had to clear the gym between semi-final games if there was too much outrage about inadequate seating.

Edited by TigerFan on 01-04-18 10:03 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 855

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: 2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
01-05-18 10:19 PM - Post#242233    
    In response to TigerFan

I wonder what Robin Harris would do if the IL Tournament semi-finals on March 10th would be cancelled similar to this evening at the Palestra. Would she use the famous Ernie Banks motto "Let's play 2 on Sunday" or draw the winner out of a ceramic bowl similar to the recent tied election results in Virginia.

 
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