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Brown Columbia Cornell Dartmouth Harvard Penn Princeton Yale



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Username Post: Ivy AI        (Topic#20542)
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 3834

Reg: 11-22-04
10-10-17 04:41 PM - Post#233742    
    In response to SRP

it's annoying to read you be dense about how seemingly indifferent you are to knock on effects. more students can attend - COOL. You've now given yourself an advantage in athletics - NOT COOL.

You understand this right? You changed something major for a very good reason and then held everything else constant.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3607

Reg: 02-04-06
10-10-17 04:48 PM - Post#233743    
    In response to Jeff2sf

Because athletics aren't exactly the top priority here. Tail wagging dog, etc. Anyway, doesn't Penn do about the same thing now?

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1277

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
10-10-17 04:49 PM - Post#233744    
    In response to mrjames

Mike, are you insinuating some imminent recruiting news?

Do tell!

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 5327

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
10-10-17 04:59 PM - Post#233745    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Expanded FA has made the league better across the board. I cheer on the day when essentially only those for whom a $70K bill per year is nary a concern have to pay the $70K and everyone else pays a small fraction (if anything) of it. All else equal we would be an insanely good league (consistently multi-bid) in that case.

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 3834

Reg: 11-22-04
10-10-17 07:09 PM - Post#233750    
    In response to SRP

why would you be so obtuse as to think we want you to stop giving out aid to lower income people. we want you to adjust the rules of the game to reflect your unequal advantages. you're like a guy born on 3rd base who thinks he hit a triple.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3607

Reg: 02-04-06
10-10-17 07:41 PM - Post#233754    
    In response to Jeff2sf

Isn't Penn also on 3rd base?

 
section110 
Masters Student
Posts: 757

Loc: south jersey
Reg: 11-22-04
10-10-17 08:51 PM - Post#233757    
    In response to SRP

Yes. But Penn hit a double after it was born & stole third base.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3386

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
10-11-17 06:56 AM - Post#233760    
    In response to section110

Also, the pitcher's at bat right now, and the third base coach seems to be paying no attention to us at all.

Anybody want to push this metaphor a little further?

 
QHoops 
Senior
Posts: 304

Reg: 12-16-04
10-11-17 07:20 AM - Post#233762    
    In response to Silver Maple

Here's the throw, here's the play at the plate

Holy cow, I think he's gonna make it!

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 20069

Reg: 11-21-04
10-11-17 07:34 AM - Post#233763    
    In response to QHoops

Stop right there.

 
rbg 
PhD Student
Posts: 1054

Reg: 10-20-14
10-11-17 08:54 AM - Post#233770    
    In response to palestra38

Since the subject took a turn towards the issue of cost of attendance, I figure I would put some IL money issues for people to review. I'll let more enlightened members discuss how these numbers fit into the discussion of recruiting.

I apologize, in advance, for the formatting errors. I tried to improve it, but this was the best I could do.

In 1/2017 the Equality of Opportunity Project accumulated data on the percentages of students from different socio-economic groups at US colleges and universities. Here is how the IL schools fared:

Soc-Ec% Bro Col Cor Dar Har Pen Pri Yal
Top 1% 19% 13% 10% 21% 15% 19% 17% 19%
Top 10% 60% 48% 48% 58% 53% 58% 58% 57%
Top 20% 70% 62% 64% 69% 67% 71% 72% 69%
Top 40% 82% 79% 80% 86% 80% 84% 86% 84%
Bot 60% 18% 21% 20% 14% 20% 16% 14% 16%
Bot 20% 4% 5% 4% 3% 5% 3% 2% 2%

Med Inc 204K 151K 152K 200K 169K 196K 186K 193K

For 3 of the last 4 years, the NY Times has produced its College Access Index, which is suppose to show which schools are doing the most for low and middle income students. For the 2015 and 2017 surveys, it looked at schools with a 5 year graduation rate of 75% or higher. In 2015 that number was 179 school, but it dropped to 171 in 2017.

The Access Index looks at the % of first-year students that receive Pell Grants, the cost to attend for students whose families earn between $30K-$75K a year, and the percentage of those students to graduate.

2017 Bro Col Cor Dar Har Pen Pri Yal
Pell% 15% 16% 13% 13% 15% 13% 16% 14%
Cost 10K 9K 14K 10K 5K 10K 6K 7K
Score 1.19 1.26 0.99 1.10 1.36 1.10 1.34 1.22
Rank 27 19 80 44 10 46 13 21

2015 Bro Col Cor Dar Har Pen Pri Yal
Pell% 16% 15% 14% 12% 15% 14% 13% 12%
Cost 11K 9K 17K 12K 7K 13K 7K 8K
Score 1.21 1.23 0.98 1.04 1.30 1.10 1.24 1.18
Rank 22 21 73 55 11 39 18 26




 
section110 
Masters Student
Posts: 757

Loc: south jersey
Reg: 11-22-04
10-11-17 09:33 AM - Post#233772    
    In response to palestra38

Love a good Meatloaf reference.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 20069

Reg: 11-21-04
10-11-17 10:28 AM - Post#233773    
    In response to rbg

I think you continue to miss the point. Nobody thinks that expanding financial aid is a bad thing. A lot of people think that the impact on basketball has created de facto athletic scholarships for some schools while not for others. So the original intent of banning scholarships to provide a level playing field has been perverted to one which creates an inherently unbalanced one. Keep the financial aid high---end the ban on athletic scholarships.

 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3467

Reg: 11-23-04
10-11-17 10:54 AM - Post#233778    
    In response to palestra38

And get rid of the AI.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 5327

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
10-11-17 11:18 AM - Post#233781    
    In response to palestra38

Yeah, I know a lot of people think that, but it's not true. While things were a little in flux when the first huge FA moves were made and other Ivies reacted, FA has stabilized and isn't really a differentiator.

There is zero reason why Penn shouldn't be hauling in top-of-the-Ivy classes. It's kind of mystifying that it isn't. Other schools with smaller recruiting budgets, not as good facilities to sell, etc, I get, but Penn should be recruiting at the top of the league.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 20069

Reg: 11-21-04
10-11-17 12:00 PM - Post#233782    
    In response to mrjames

That just isn't true. While just about all the Ivies give free tuition up to $60K in income,and Harvard is either free or a pittance up to $150, Princeton charges no tuition to $140K and Yale only a small percentage up to $200K. These amounts are far more than the other schools. Being able to match is no substitute for making the best and highest offer, especially where the 3 schools offering the most have the best "brands" to begin with.

 
rbg 
PhD Student
Posts: 1054

Reg: 10-20-14
Ivy AI
10-11-17 12:09 PM - Post#233785    
    In response to mrjames

If Penn (and, possibly, Brown, Columbia, Cornell and Dartmouth) is losing recruiting to Harvard, Princeton and Yale, do you believe that these students have decided to choose a school with a better chance of being in the NCAA Tournament and/or becoming a pro - even if that athlete is going to have to wait his turn to play or be part of a larger rotation of highly rated teammates?

If competing against non-IL schools, does the cost of attendance, even with improved financial aid, make it too difficult for many qualified lower income athletes to attend an IL school? (According to the NYT Access Index info above, an average low/middle income Penn student coming from a family making $30-$75K a year will have to pay $40,000 for his/her undergraduate schooling).

Or, do you believe that these qualified students are going to non-IL for a different set of reason(s)?

Thanks for the comments

Edited by rbg on 10-11-17 12:11 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
QHoops 
Senior
Posts: 304

Reg: 12-16-04
Re: Ivy AI
10-11-17 12:15 PM - Post#233786    
    In response to rbg

I don't believe the kind of kid that has succeeded on the court enough to be a highly sought after recruit (hardly) ever thinks he is going to have to wait his turn.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2287

Reg: 11-23-04
10-11-17 12:54 PM - Post#233792    
    In response to SRP

Amen, SRP. I, for one, was influenced in my annual giving decision by the high loan component of an undergraduate's cost when our endowment reached such gigantic amounts. When Princeton led the Ivies, especially h and y, in loosening its pursestrings to make it more affordable to students from lower and middle income families, I applauded the decision and upped my modest giving. I believe that the decision was driven primarily by the conclusion that Princeton was losing increasing numbers of talented students as a result of its high net cost relative to good state institutions. So, although it was a self-serving decision, the effect, if one believe as I do, that an Ivy education is something special, was very positive. If it has also made a Princeton education available to some bright students who are also fine athletes, so much the better, But, unlike athletic scholarships, FA based on need has no strings -- like staying free of injury or continued athletic participation. The coaches are out of it once a student gains admission. Which, IMHO, is how it should be. P's large endowment does put a few smaller Ivies and/or those with less generous or affluent alumni/ae at a disadvantage in potential FA. But, I shed only crocodile tears for all but B and D. Life ain't fair.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 20069

Reg: 11-21-04
Ivy AI
10-11-17 01:05 PM - Post#233796    
    In response to Tiger69

It has little to do with generous alumni and everything to do with the Ivy Agreement. The Ivies were formed by persuading Cornell and Penn to drop high Division 1 football programs and give up athletic scholarships by promising that all 8 schools would have a level playing field to compete financially, going so far as to coordinate financial aid until the Feds stopped that collusion. So now, 3 schools are able to use their general FA policies to create a substantial advantage over the other 5. I think it's great that they are doing that. However, we need to revisit the Ivy Agreement and decide whether each school can determine it's own standards on academics (as HYPr are doing with FA), whether athletic scholarships are warranted or whether we make permanent the current advantages for those 3

 
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