Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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10-10-17 05:41 PM - Post#233742
In response to SRP
it's annoying to read you be dense about how seemingly indifferent you are to knock on effects. more students can attend - COOL. You've now given yourself an advantage in athletics - NOT COOL.
You understand this right? You changed something major for a very good reason and then held everything else constant.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4894
Reg: 02-04-06
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10-10-17 05:48 PM - Post#233743
In response to Jeff2sf
Because athletics aren't exactly the top priority here. Tail wagging dog, etc. Anyway, doesn't Penn do about the same thing now?
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2685
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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10-10-17 05:49 PM - Post#233744
In response to mrjames
Mike, are you insinuating some imminent recruiting news?
Do tell!
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-10-17 05:59 PM - Post#233745
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Expanded FA has made the league better across the board. I cheer on the day when essentially only those for whom a $70K bill per year is nary a concern have to pay the $70K and everyone else pays a small fraction (if anything) of it. All else equal we would be an insanely good league (consistently multi-bid) in that case.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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10-10-17 08:09 PM - Post#233750
In response to SRP
why would you be so obtuse as to think we want you to stop giving out aid to lower income people. we want you to adjust the rules of the game to reflect your unequal advantages. you're like a guy born on 3rd base who thinks he hit a triple.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4894
Reg: 02-04-06
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10-10-17 08:41 PM - Post#233754
In response to Jeff2sf
Isn't Penn also on 3rd base?
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section110
Masters Student
Posts: 847
Loc: south jersey
Reg: 11-22-04
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10-10-17 09:51 PM - Post#233757
In response to SRP
Yes. But Penn hit a double after it was born & stole third base.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3765
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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10-11-17 07:56 AM - Post#233760
In response to section110
Also, the pitcher's at bat right now, and the third base coach seems to be paying no attention to us at all.
Anybody want to push this metaphor a little further?
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QHoops
Senior
Posts: 368
Reg: 12-16-04
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10-11-17 08:20 AM - Post#233762
In response to Silver Maple
Here's the throw, here's the play at the plate
Holy cow, I think he's gonna make it!
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32682
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-11-17 08:34 AM - Post#233763
In response to QHoops
Stop right there.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3044
Reg: 10-20-14
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10-11-17 09:54 AM - Post#233770
In response to palestra38
Since the subject took a turn towards the issue of cost of attendance, I figure I would put some IL money issues for people to review. I'll let more enlightened members discuss how these numbers fit into the discussion of recruiting.
I apologize, in advance, for the formatting errors. I tried to improve it, but this was the best I could do.
In 1/2017 the Equality of Opportunity Project accumulated data on the percentages of students from different socio-economic groups at US colleges and universities. Here is how the IL schools fared:
Soc-Ec% Bro Col Cor Dar Har Pen Pri Yal
Top 1% 19% 13% 10% 21% 15% 19% 17% 19%
Top 10% 60% 48% 48% 58% 53% 58% 58% 57%
Top 20% 70% 62% 64% 69% 67% 71% 72% 69%
Top 40% 82% 79% 80% 86% 80% 84% 86% 84%
Bot 60% 18% 21% 20% 14% 20% 16% 14% 16%
Bot 20% 4% 5% 4% 3% 5% 3% 2% 2%
Med Inc 204K 151K 152K 200K 169K 196K 186K 193K
For 3 of the last 4 years, the NY Times has produced its College Access Index, which is suppose to show which schools are doing the most for low and middle income students. For the 2015 and 2017 surveys, it looked at schools with a 5 year graduation rate of 75% or higher. In 2015 that number was 179 school, but it dropped to 171 in 2017.
The Access Index looks at the % of first-year students that receive Pell Grants, the cost to attend for students whose families earn between $30K-$75K a year, and the percentage of those students to graduate.
2017 Bro Col Cor Dar Har Pen Pri Yal
Pell% 15% 16% 13% 13% 15% 13% 16% 14%
Cost 10K 9K 14K 10K 5K 10K 6K 7K
Score 1.19 1.26 0.99 1.10 1.36 1.10 1.34 1.22
Rank 27 19 80 44 10 46 13 21
2015 Bro Col Cor Dar Har Pen Pri Yal
Pell% 16% 15% 14% 12% 15% 14% 13% 12%
Cost 11K 9K 17K 12K 7K 13K 7K 8K
Score 1.21 1.23 0.98 1.04 1.30 1.10 1.24 1.18
Rank 22 21 73 55 11 39 18 26
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section110
Masters Student
Posts: 847
Loc: south jersey
Reg: 11-22-04
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10-11-17 10:33 AM - Post#233772
In response to palestra38
Love a good Meatloaf reference.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32682
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-11-17 11:28 AM - Post#233773
In response to rbg
I think you continue to miss the point. Nobody thinks that expanding financial aid is a bad thing. A lot of people think that the impact on basketball has created de facto athletic scholarships for some schools while not for others. So the original intent of banning scholarships to provide a level playing field has been perverted to one which creates an inherently unbalanced one. Keep the financial aid high---end the ban on athletic scholarships.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3988
Reg: 11-23-04
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10-11-17 11:54 AM - Post#233778
In response to palestra38
And get rid of the AI.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-11-17 12:18 PM - Post#233781
In response to palestra38
Yeah, I know a lot of people think that, but it's not true. While things were a little in flux when the first huge FA moves were made and other Ivies reacted, FA has stabilized and isn't really a differentiator.
There is zero reason why Penn shouldn't be hauling in top-of-the-Ivy classes. It's kind of mystifying that it isn't. Other schools with smaller recruiting budgets, not as good facilities to sell, etc, I get, but Penn should be recruiting at the top of the league.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32682
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-11-17 01:00 PM - Post#233782
In response to mrjames
That just isn't true. While just about all the Ivies give free tuition up to $60K in income,and Harvard is either free or a pittance up to $150, Princeton charges no tuition to $140K and Yale only a small percentage up to $200K. These amounts are far more than the other schools. Being able to match is no substitute for making the best and highest offer, especially where the 3 schools offering the most have the best "brands" to begin with.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3044
Reg: 10-20-14
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Ivy AI 10-11-17 01:09 PM - Post#233785
In response to mrjames
If Penn (and, possibly, Brown, Columbia, Cornell and Dartmouth) is losing recruiting to Harvard, Princeton and Yale, do you believe that these students have decided to choose a school with a better chance of being in the NCAA Tournament and/or becoming a pro - even if that athlete is going to have to wait his turn to play or be part of a larger rotation of highly rated teammates?
If competing against non-IL schools, does the cost of attendance, even with improved financial aid, make it too difficult for many qualified lower income athletes to attend an IL school? (According to the NYT Access Index info above, an average low/middle income Penn student coming from a family making $30-$75K a year will have to pay $40,000 for his/her undergraduate schooling).
Or, do you believe that these qualified students are going to non-IL for a different set of reason(s)?
Thanks for the comments
Edited by rbg on 10-11-17 01:11 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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QHoops
Senior
Posts: 368
Reg: 12-16-04
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Re: Ivy AI 10-11-17 01:15 PM - Post#233786
In response to rbg
I don't believe the kind of kid that has succeeded on the court enough to be a highly sought after recruit (hardly) ever thinks he is going to have to wait his turn.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2801
Reg: 11-23-04
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10-11-17 01:54 PM - Post#233792
In response to SRP
Amen, SRP. I, for one, was influenced in my annual giving decision by the high loan component of an undergraduate's cost when our endowment reached such gigantic amounts. When Princeton led the Ivies, especially h and y, in loosening its pursestrings to make it more affordable to students from lower and middle income families, I applauded the decision and upped my modest giving. I believe that the decision was driven primarily by the conclusion that Princeton was losing increasing numbers of talented students as a result of its high net cost relative to good state institutions. So, although it was a self-serving decision, the effect, if one believe as I do, that an Ivy education is something special, was very positive. If it has also made a Princeton education available to some bright students who are also fine athletes, so much the better, But, unlike athletic scholarships, FA based on need has no strings -- like staying free of injury or continued athletic participation. The coaches are out of it once a student gains admission. Which, IMHO, is how it should be. P's large endowment does put a few smaller Ivies and/or those with less generous or affluent alumni/ae at a disadvantage in potential FA. But, I shed only crocodile tears for all but B and D. Life ain't fair.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32682
Reg: 11-21-04
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Ivy AI 10-11-17 02:05 PM - Post#233796
In response to Tiger69
It has little to do with generous alumni and everything to do with the Ivy Agreement. The Ivies were formed by persuading Cornell and Penn to drop high Division 1 football programs and give up athletic scholarships by promising that all 8 schools would have a level playing field to compete financially, going so far as to coordinate financial aid until the Feds stopped that collusion. So now, 3 schools are able to use their general FA policies to create a substantial advantage over the other 5. I think it's great that they are doing that. However, we need to revisit the Ivy Agreement and decide whether each school can determine it's own standards on academics (as HYPr are doing with FA), whether athletic scholarships are warranted or whether we make permanent the current advantages for those 3
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