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Username Post: Early Season "Swing Games"        (Topic#20642)
IvyBballFan 
Senior
Posts: 375

Age: 71
Reg: 11-19-09
11-07-17 07:40 PM - Post#235636    

If one combines amalgamated Pre-Season Rankings with game location, one can: a) get a sense of individual Ivy team records at the start of league play; and b) come up with a series of Ivy/non-con “swing” games to watch over the next three weeks.

The way that pre-season is scheduled, it looks as if Brown, Columbia, Cornell, and Dartmouth will be hard put to come out of the pre-season with more than four W’s each. The start for the Lions looks particularly brutal. The other four schools have a much better chance of heading into league play with winning records. However, it will be tough for any of them to get double digit wins. Without knowing four or five non-predictable matchups that will occur in pre-season tournaments, the Ivies will do well to enter league play with a combined .500 record.

The early-season games below should be tightly contested. The overall trend in these 12 games may give early hints as to how the individual teams, and the league as a whole will fare this year:
Penn@Fairfield (Sa 11-Nov)
Brown@Quinnipiac (M 13-Nov)
LaSalle@Penn (M 13-Nov)
BYU@Prin (W 15-Nov)
Yale@Albany (F 17-Nov)
Brown@St. Francis (NY) (Su 19-Nov)
Cornell@UMass Lowell (Su 19-Nov)
LIU@Brown (Sa 25-Nov)
Yale@Vermont (Sa 25-Nov)
Brown@Bryant (Su 26-Nov)
Loyola (MD)@Dartmouth (Tu 28-Nov)
Dartmouth@Sacred Heart (Tu 5-Dec)


 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 930

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
Early Season "Swing Games"
11-15-17 02:13 PM - Post#236404    
    In response to IvyBballFan

College Basketball Insider has a Mid Major Top 25 that is updated on Mondays. Currently, Harvard is #6, Princeton is #22, and Yale is #30 (in votes - it's a top 25 listing).

Big games in the next 10 days:

Tonight: BYU (#8) at Princeton
Thanksgiving: Harvard vs St. Marys (#2)

Vermont (#3) visits Yale on Nov. 25th and Harvard on Jan. 2nd. The entire Ivy League avoids Bucknell (#7) this season.

Not sure if this suggests that the Mid Majors are tough this year, but Indiana St. (#25) already beat Indiana by 21.

Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 11-15-17 02:18 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
TigerFan 
PhD Student
Posts: 1092

Reg: 11-21-04
11-18-17 09:11 PM - Post#236883    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Not the season some folks expected as presumed top 4 look pretty wobbly (but congratulations to the Quakers for today's big win over Penn State Brandywine--you should be very proud).

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 16941

Reg: 11-21-04
11-18-17 09:41 PM - Post#236892    
    In response to TigerFan

Mandatory game for those in Gulf Coast Classic (all the competitors in Estero had to play a Div 3 game at home for 1st round--don't know why but they did). But thanks anyway. And congrats on a hard fought 13 point loss to Joe's.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3006

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
11-18-17 10:52 PM - Post#236903    
    In response to palestra38

Turnabout is fair play. We've certainly heaped abuse and derision on Princeton fans every year for their pathetic annual post-exams DIII tumble. They're allowed to repay us in kind.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 16941

Reg: 11-21-04
11-18-17 11:23 PM - Post#236906    
    In response to Silver Maple

They schedule one...and lost to Carnegie Mellon. We accepted the requirement that we play these guys to play the prestigious Gulf Coast "Classic"

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3006

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
11-19-17 09:15 AM - Post#236917    
    In response to palestra38

True, but show some compassion. They're Princeton fans. No Penn fan can possibly understand the constant shame and humiliation that goes with that.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2184

Reg: 11-23-04
11-19-17 12:45 PM - Post#236944    
    In response to Silver Maple

Still have that chip on your shoulder! Do tell us how t got there.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3006

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
11-19-17 10:28 PM - Post#236969    
    In response to Tiger69

Pete Carril once bit my dog. It was horrible.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 16941

Reg: 11-21-04
11-20-17 11:58 AM - Post#237004    
    In response to Silver Maple

What a terrible weekend for Ivy teams. Columbia and Yale lose to Penn State and Albany Friday, Harvard and Princeton lose to Manhattan and St Joe's Saturday, and Brown and Cornell lose to St Francis Bklyn and UMass-Lowell on Sunday.

Thankfully, Penn and Yale beat up on non-Division 1 teams as well.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3006

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
11-20-17 01:12 PM - Post#237023    
    In response to palestra38

If all we can point to for accomplishments is hammering a couple of D3 opponents, that's nothing to brag about. But no snarky comments about Princeton and St. Joes, or there might be some retorts involving chips and shoulders.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2184

Reg: 11-23-04
11-21-17 12:42 PM - Post#237211    
    In response to Silver Maple

Pete must have bit him really hard! Get a cat.

 
yoyo 
Sophomore
Posts: 175

Reg: 03-25-09
11-21-17 02:52 PM - Post#237228    
    In response to Tiger69

you talking to yourself again?

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2184

Reg: 11-23-04
11-21-17 03:11 PM - Post#237229    
    In response to yoyo

Just some good-natured exchanges with my Pennfriend and fellow Jerseyite SM. You can ignore us

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 930

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
11-25-17 06:08 PM - Post#237589    
    In response to Tiger69

As an opponent of the Tournament, things looking pretty weak for right now.

1. Big gap between #4 Penn (KP#149) and #5 Columbia (KP#195);
2. Second bid already an impossibility;
3. Four teams ranked KP#114 to KP#149 will struggle through the season, hoping not to lose a spot in the tournament;
4. Projected #4 seed gets home court advantage;
5. Possible multi team title chase over the last two weekends is largely irrelevant; and
6. Actually, next 100 days largely irrelevant.

Good luck to the healthiest/luckiest team March 10-11.


 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4304

Reg: 11-22-04
11-26-17 08:02 AM - Post#237909    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

On the kenpom gap from 4 to 5, we had the same thing last year, and we still got a great race for the last spot.

Presuming for a moment that HYP are really as close as they appear in kenpom, to me the added games to determine who goes to the NCAAs seems like a good thing, or at least not a a bad thing. Why not determine the winner over 16 instead of 14?

I do agree that there is some unfairness in the venue, particularly if Penn is 4th but close. That said, while I am obviously biased, I thought it was a very fun event last year, and a good showcase for the league (and its best venue).

 
westphillywarrior 
Sophomore
Posts: 157

Age: 37
Reg: 01-08-11
11-26-17 12:25 PM - Post#237945    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:
As an opponent of the Tournament, things looking pretty weak for right now.

1. Big gap between #4 Penn (KP#149) and #5 Columbia (KP#195);
2. Second bid already an impossibility;
3. Four teams ranked KP#114 to KP#149 will struggle through the season, hoping not to lose a spot in the tournament;
4. Projected #4 seed gets home court advantage;
5. Possible multi team title chase over the last two weekends is largely irrelevant; and
6. Actually, next 100 days largely irrelevant.

Good luck to the healthiest/luckiest team March 10-11.




That about says it all. Very sad. We'll see you at the Palestra
March 10-11.


 
westphillywarrior 
Sophomore
Posts: 157

Age: 37
Reg: 01-08-11
11-26-17 12:28 PM - Post#237947    
    In response to SomeGuy

"Why not determine the winner over 16 instead of 14?"

That's a pretty funny line.
Don't you mean "Why not determine the winner over 2 instead of 14?"

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2184

Reg: 11-23-04
11-26-17 01:04 PM - Post#237949    
    In response to westphillywarrior

I reacted the same way. Then, it occurred to me that, if the race were close, then perhaps a tournament could be tacked on for any teams finishing within, say, a couple of games of first place, truly extending the season 2-4 games, and giving the close also-rans a chance to overtake the regular season champ. Of course, regular season record would have to be given equal weight for this to be justified IMHO.

Just hypothetical. I'm afraid that nothing will change the current, stupid circus. All college sports, like politics, seem to be drifting toward hype and money.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 930

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
11-26-17 03:49 PM - Post#237958    
    In response to Tiger69

Why extend anything?

A 14 game round robin tournament worked very well for decades. If you can't beat your brethren over 100 days, why should you get another try?

Sure, the recent regular season ties resulted in exciting tie breakers. But does that mean we should create a faux tie situation by ignoring the regular season?

In a multi-bid league, a tournament can work to your advantage. In a single bid league, it highlights and exposes our mediocrity. If you think the Ivy League is not mediocre, then why are we without a top 100 team?



 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2184

Reg: 11-23-04
11-26-17 08:03 PM - Post#237988    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

No argument. You're preachin' to the Choir. I was merely giving a charitable interpretation to Some Guy's post about determining a champ over 16 games.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 646

Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
11-26-17 09:33 PM - Post#237997    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Fortunately, it is very early in the season and perhaps, several of the IL teams will perform better as the non-conference season continues on. Brown, Cornell and possibly Penn will get better over time which will be a plus for the league. Harvard may also go off on a good winning streak and try to get a bid irregardless of the IL Tournament, unlikely but you never know. At the end of the day, the major excitement for the IL regular season will probably be which team finishes fourth like last year.

It makes sense for a good to very good IL team to play a very competitive non-conference schedule in order to secure an invitation without winning the IL Tournament and hope that the other IL teams play competitively in non-conference action. The other play by a coach might be to simply develop your team during non-conference play in order to peak for the March weekend and be less concerned about non-conference wins/losses.

Legitimate questions regarding the IL Tournament would become somewhat muted if the league improves enough to truly have two representatives.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4304

Reg: 11-22-04
11-26-17 10:11 PM - Post#238000    
    In response to westphillywarrior

To me, it is over 16. if you are within a game or two, it very well could be that a 2nd place regular season team that wins the tourney will end up with the best conference record after 16.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4304

Reg: 11-22-04
11-26-17 10:14 PM - Post#238001    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Is it really a fair advantage when we were literally the only league in the country choosing our representative without a tournament?

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 930

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
Early Season "Swing Games"
12-03-17 11:13 AM - Post#238886    
    In response to SomeGuy

I don't know if it's been discussed much, but school academic calendars were reputedly a major influence on last year's tournament. For example, I know that Harvard players apparently pulled all nighters for midterms and papers before boarding the bus from Boston to Philly. Penn had the week off to practice on the home court. I knew more about Princeton and Yale then.

Looking to this year:

Harvard, Yale, Columbia: midterms likely (Harvard definitely) right up to the tournament weekend, which is at the start of spring break

Penn: week off (spring break) heading into the tournament; midterms completed over a week prior to tip off.

Dartmouth: Final exams (not midterms) start Friday and end Monday, tournament most inconvenient - right in the middle.

Princeton: midterm week follows the tournament

Brown, Cornell: uncertain, appears midterms are likely two weeks after tournament (could start week following)

Please feel free to update with info. Thus:

Advantage:
1) Penn
2) Brown, Cornell

Disadvantage:
1) Dartmouth
2) Harvard, Yale, Columbia
3) Princeton

Bias acknowledged, but the Ivy League couldn't have tipped the scales more if it tried. Schools with exams have to travel the furthest (Dartmouth, Harvard), while the only school with a week off plays at home.

Good Job.

Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 12-03-17 11:14 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3006

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
12-03-17 12:36 PM - Post#238895    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Just keep reminding yourself of what the Ivy Tournament is, and what it is not.

- The Ivy tournament is an entertainment product. It appears to have been created to increase visibility for the conference, give the players and fans a few more games to enjoy, and maybe make a bit of money (although that's probably a fantasy).

- The Ivy tournament has nothing to do with "fairness" (whatever that even is) or with identifying the best team(s) to represent the league in post season play.

If you keep those two points in mind, all of this makes sense.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3346

Reg: 02-04-06
12-03-17 12:58 PM - Post#238897    
    In response to Silver Maple

Fairness is central to the entertainment value.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 930

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
12-03-17 01:01 PM - Post#238898    
    In response to SRP

Fair enough - or not

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3006

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
12-03-17 01:13 PM - Post#238899    
    In response to SRP

  • SRP Said:
Fairness is central to the entertainment value.



You could actually make a pretty convincing argument for the contrary. The lack of fairness (or, if you prefer, arbitrariness) gives fans a lot to argue and gripe about. And we all know how much sports fans enjoy bickering and kvetching.

 
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