bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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11-08-17 10:30 AM - Post#235656
The show begins. Butler, BYU and St. Joe's within a week -- good tests. According to ESPN, Butler has two of the top 50 players in the country, #36 and #50 --- 6'7" forward Martin with bulk and 6'2" converted SG to PG. KenPom has Butler at #44 and Hinkle Fieldhouse is a very tough place to play. Butler has big starting frontcourt which may well be a problem.
Stephens will have to take on Martin and he will face a similar challenge like he experienced against ND Colson in the Tournament.
Butler has received uneven reviews from predictions of finishing 2nd in the Big East to the middle of the pack as they lost two talented starters.
May come down to if Tigers can keep their cool at Hinkle when Butler goes on a run. I remember VCU game last year -- tough on the road.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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11-08-17 12:57 PM - Post#235668
In response to bradley
MH was very upbeat about this Tiger team's defensive potential, to my surprise, saying they could be better than last year. This would be the game to show that, because Butler usually Ds up pretty hard, so scoring may be not so easy, especially in that building. As usual, good three-point shooting would paper over a lot of other weaknesses should they surface.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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11-08-17 01:32 PM - Post#235671
In response to SRP
Given the venue, first game, new players, etc., I will be satisfied if we can stay within a dozen points. Closer, I'm optimistic. Otherwise, jury is still out.
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JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts: 357
Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
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11-08-17 05:57 PM - Post#235694
In response to Tiger69
Henderson has voiced a lot of optimism about his team, something he need not do in public at this point. He has compared one of his freshmen to Ian Hummer and says another is ready to play at the college level. And, as Steve Postrel notes, he says this team can be better than last year's best-in-the-league defense. I have found him to be more reserved in the past than these comments suggest. Not sure what to make of it but if he can get a win or two in the first week we may have another special team.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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11-08-17 06:55 PM - Post#235701
In response to JadwinGeorge
I hope that you are right. I'm a little superstitious when the coach sounds optimistic. Don't want to get my hopes to rise to unrealistic heights.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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11-08-17 10:24 PM - Post#235715
In response to JadwinGeorge
Coach made very positive comments last year at Media Day and then the Tigers struggled in non-conference play. I suspect that he made the glowing comments this year as part of coach speak to get his team to have the proper mental outlook going into the season. As a fan, I would prefer that he does not set unrealistic expectations but he is probably doing it for the team. My preference is that he makes sure that the team is not over confident.
I did like to hear Cannady keep talking about playing good defense this year so Coach is working on his head.
At the end of the day, his comments to the press/public really has little bearing as long as the team is focused and ready to go. Unfortunately, that was not the case at the beginning of last year until they had St. Joe's outmuscle them and kick the Tigers' butt at Jadwin.
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JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts: 357
Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
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11-09-17 12:03 PM - Post#235731
In response to bradley
Difference between this year and last is stark. Last year's rotation was set through the first nine players on Day 1 of practice. Tigers were a near-unanimous choice to win the regular season Ivy title. At the time of the St. Joe's game the team had learned, literally that day and almost without warning, that Caruso was leaving the team. I believe Caruso had his own agenda regarding a return to California. This year the team will need huge contributions from first year players, in the manner of Weisz and Cannady as freshmen. Henderson knows this and is evidently comfortable with his hand. We'll find out a lot in the first 6 days.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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11-09-17 01:54 PM - Post#235744
In response to JadwinGeorge
The other mild surprise to me from early interviews was MH characterizing Much as a post player on offense. He showed a bit of that on his highlight reel but seemed very much a face-to-the-basket type. Of course, so was Hans Brase and is Alec Brennan, and they still got forced into playing back-to-the-basket offense (I think it's really inhibited Brennan, who is a natural "stretch four").
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Tiger81
Masters Student
Posts: 411
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-09-17 02:34 PM - Post#235752
In response to SRP
Butler game notes now posted on Princeton's web site: https://s3.amazonaws.com/sidearm.sites/princeton.s...
"Probable Starters"
Amir Bell
Devin Cannady
Myles Stephens
Richmond Aririguzoh
Ryan Schwieger
So ... 4 Gs/1 C (although Stephens might be considered more of a F), no Gladson or Brennan and neither of the more highly-touted frosh (Much and Desrosiers).
I don't know how definitive games notes are, but that sure took me by surprise!
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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11-09-17 02:48 PM - Post#235755
In response to Tiger81
Wow, 9 man (at least!) rotation. I was surprised, too. Could MH want his other two inexperienced freshmen to have a look at the action before inserting them? Can't figure not starting Gladson, though. But, Aririguzoh is high energy and could be a game changer if he hones his skills quickly enough.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2272
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-09-17 02:56 PM - Post#235757
In response to Tiger69
I'm not completely surprised by Aririguzoh. He looked like a natural in the post during his limited PT. I wonder if the deciding factor was his defense, including rim protection.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2272
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-09-17 03:08 PM - Post#235758
In response to Tiger81
https://campussports.net/2017/07/07/princeton- bask...
Schwieger appears to have Carmelo Anthony skills.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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11-09-17 05:50 PM - Post#235769
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
Yup, the video must have sealed the deal. 
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JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts: 357
Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
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11-09-17 08:13 PM - Post#235776
In response to Tiger69
Total surprise!!! Not sure what it means, if accurate, except that this team is very deep in talent.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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11-09-17 09:13 PM - Post#235781
In response to JadwinGeorge
That lineup has only Cannady under 6'4" and the tallest man is the mobile Aririguzoh at 6'9", so they should be able to switch all screens. I liked the brief snippets of Aririguzoh last year, so if he's improved his offense a bit he could definitely help.
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jadwinjungle
Freshman
Posts: 45
Age: 26
Reg: 10-02-17
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11-09-17 10:42 PM - Post#235787
In response to SRP
Agreed, this seems like a very versatile team on defense with the 4 perimeter starters, along with Much, Desrosiers, LeBlanc who are in that similar 6'5" to 6'7" range. Aririguzoh and Brennan are both quite mobile for bigs as well. Gladson seems to be the only one who could have trouble switching onto perimeter players, so perhaps that was the deciding factor in starting Aririguzoh.
If Aririguzoh has really improved enough to be a starter in game 1 of his sophomore year, that would be extremely impressive and a testament to his work ethic since he was thought to be a raw project coming in. Getting even more excited to see how the team looks this year
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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11-10-17 10:56 AM - Post#235796
In response to JadwinGeorge
Very surprising especially against a big front court like Butler. Then again I thought that Coach could have gone with a bigger line up against big time non-conference opponents in the past.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1885
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-10-17 05:27 PM - Post#235843
In response to bradley
I'm surprised but not stunned. Richmond has not played that many years of basketball and was expected by people that knew his game to improve rapidly at Princeton. He plays great interior defense, which will be critical this year.
I've heard Ryan called the "sleeper" of this class (as Richmond was in last year's).
Go Tigers!
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-10-17 06:36 PM - Post#235852
In response to TigerFan
Yeah, I’ve been calling BS on that starting lineup since it’s been posted. Very easily could be wrong, but if that’s where Princeton’s really at, it’s not a good thing.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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11-10-17 10:09 PM - Post#235865
In response to mrjames
We'll find out real soon. No one ever guessed that Caruso would emerge as a game changer. Or, possibly, this could indicate injury (ies) to some players. 
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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11-11-17 03:08 AM - Post#235894
In response to Tiger69
Butler had 24pt halftime lead against weak opponent and took foot off pedal. 6’7†forward Martin was good. Disappointing start for IL teams other than Columbia. Yale is in trouble w/o Bruner and Mason.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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11-11-17 05:49 AM - Post#235896
In response to bradley
Injuries and transfers are definitely starting to shake things up. Hope PU hasn't been affected.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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11-11-17 11:47 AM - Post#235903
In response to SRP
Let’s keep our fingers crossed. IL BB fans may have a case of “irrational exuberance†at beginning of season - performance will tell ultimate story - very early but not a good start. Butler has won 36 straight games at Hinkle against non-conference. 20-4 after 4 minutes last night albeit against weak opponent. Go Tigers!
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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11-11-17 03:49 PM - Post#235930
In response to bradley
What I'm looking for in this first game (besides a possible quality win) is aggression and confidence. I would like to see the Tigers be the hunters for 40 minutes, play decisively, box out hard, create deflections, get the 50-50 balls, be strong with the ball, and attack the rim undeterred by occasional shot blocks. They need to set a tone for the season, especially for the young players. I sense that making plus plays will matter more on the margin than avoiding mistakes in this game.
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Tiger81
Masters Student
Posts: 411
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-12-17 07:35 PM - Post#236014
In response to SRP
Can't watch the game because I am on a flight (bad planning, I know) but it looks like it was Much and Desrosiers plus Cannady, Bell and Stephens who started the game, so much for the game notes. 20-19 Butler after 10 minutes with Alec Brennan scoring 7 unexpected points.
How do the Tigers look?
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2272
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-12-17 07:41 PM - Post#236015
In response to Tiger81
Can't stop the penetration.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1885
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-12-17 07:42 PM - Post#236016
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
Defense looks very weak tonight.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1885
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-12-17 07:43 PM - Post#236017
In response to TigerFan
Tigers just fell apart after the horrible no call on the Butler goaltending.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2272
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-12-17 07:53 PM - Post#236021
In response to TigerFan
Several bad calls. The charging call on Stephens HORRIBLE
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Tiger81
Masters Student
Posts: 411
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-12-17 07:53 PM - Post#236022
In response to TigerFan
Game stats show that Butler has taken 9 more shots than Princeton due to TO's and OR's.
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts: 3665
Reg: 02-06-10
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Butler
11-12-17 07:55 PM - Post#236023
In response to TigerFan
Offense looks great, but the defense is too soft. Homer refs have stolen at least 7pts on Princeton buckets (obvious goaltend + 2 "charges"). Butler flops like crazy on every single defensive stand...Brad Stevens' class is gone from that program.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1885
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-12-17 07:58 PM - Post#236025
In response to Tiger81
Amir Bell looks like he's ready for a great senior season. Stephens was robbed on two bs offensive foul calls but looks ready to pick up where he left off last year. Defense has a long way to go. Freshman jitters noticeable. Hope they can play a little better in second half.
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Tiger81
Masters Student
Posts: 411
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-12-17 08:02 PM - Post#236026
In response to TigerFan
No Gladson?
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jeromelh
Junior
Posts: 213
Age: 81
Reg: 03-30-17
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11-12-17 08:05 PM - Post#236027
In response to Tiger81
I was also going to ask about Gladson. I hope it isn't serious Butler is flopping and getting away with it. The first charging all on Stephens was an obvious block. The second was an obvious flop. Without the bad calls, this game would be close. We have to be patient with the freshmen. They need time to grow.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2272
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Butler
11-12-17 08:08 PM - Post#236030
In response to gokinsmen
Offense looks great, but the defense is too soft. Homer refs have stolen at least 7pts on Princeton buckets (obvious goaltend + 2 "charges"). Butler flops like crazy on every single defensive stand...Brad Stevens' class is gone from that program.
Good point. I hate flopping (and therefore Duke).
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jeromelh
Junior
Posts: 213
Age: 81
Reg: 03-30-17
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11-12-17 08:11 PM - Post#236031
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
Whatever the issue with Gladson, it must have happened yesterday as he tweeted yesterday and he was ready for Butler
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1885
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-12-17 08:15 PM - Post#236034
In response to Tiger81
So far #33 not showing Much. (Sorry)
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jeromelh
Junior
Posts: 213
Age: 81
Reg: 03-30-17
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11-12-17 08:21 PM - Post#236035
In response to TigerFan
Give him time
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Tiger81
Masters Student
Posts: 411
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-12-17 08:32 PM - Post#236036
In response to jeromelh
Of Princeton's 29 shots so far, Stephens has taken 11, Bell has taken 8 and Cannady has taken 5. Yikes.
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts: 3665
Reg: 02-06-10
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Butler
11-12-17 08:33 PM - Post#236037
In response to jeromelh
Myles Stephens is easily the best player on both ends for either team. He's had 3 buckets waved off to boot!
The reason for the deficit are our two freshmen starters. They've been big fat zero on both ends (with a couple of bad minus plays by Much). I guess Mitch wants them ready for Ivy play, but I'd rather see Brennan start for one of them.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1885
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-12-17 08:36 PM - Post#236038
In response to TigerFan
Morales has blown 2 fast breaks now.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2272
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Butler
11-12-17 08:37 PM - Post#236039
In response to gokinsmen
Stephens.....what is his ceiling??
Nice to see Brennan hit those two 3's.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1885
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-12-17 08:42 PM - Post#236041
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
Really tough place to play but Tigers hanging in nicely.
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts: 3665
Reg: 02-06-10
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11-12-17 08:44 PM - Post#236042
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
Butler bouncing in 3s and getting Princeton buckets waved off by homer refs. And they're still hanging in there. I like what I see even if we're going to come up short.
I don't see any reason to start the freshmen going forward. Ease them in. Stephens, Bell and Cannady will take care of the buckets. Just need solid fundamentals from our starting bigs.
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jeromelh
Junior
Posts: 213
Age: 81
Reg: 03-30-17
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11-12-17 08:48 PM - Post#236043
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
This team is going to be really good come Ivy League schedule
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1885
Reg: 11-21-04
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Butler
11-12-17 08:49 PM - Post#236044
In response to TigerFan
Morales with another big mistake. Bad turnover that leads to an easy 2 for Butler.
Edited by TigerFan on 11-12-17 08:50 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2272
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-12-17 09:00 PM - Post#236046
In response to TigerFan
Still trouble with those big bodies inside.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1885
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-12-17 09:04 PM - Post#236047
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
Offense looked great tonight. Defense needs a lot of work. All in all though I'm encouraged.
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts: 3665
Reg: 02-06-10
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Butler
11-12-17 09:06 PM - Post#236048
In response to TigerFan
Simply put, starting the freshmen cost us the game. Awful homer reffing taking away 3 clear buckets clinched it. We're very soft at the rim, but that's mostly an inherent weakness with this roster.
Overall, an encouraging if annoying season opener. Brennan and/or LeBlanc need to start. At least they know what they're doing out there.
Morales made some bad mistakes, but I like his energy. Sure he blew two fastbreaks, but he's the one who created them with his steals. My problem with Desrosiers and Much is that they were invisible...played scared as freshmen do.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2272
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-12-17 09:13 PM - Post#236049
In response to TigerFan
Still trouble with those big bodies inside.
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THOS
Freshman
Posts: 15
Reg: 01-14-07
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11-12-17 09:15 PM - Post#236050
In response to gokinsmen
Not a bad effort overall, against a good team on their home court minus our starting center (Gladson). I did see him on the bench (no crutches or cast).So hopefully he will be back soon. Much is not a center.
I agree Brennan should have played more, especially in the second half. Stephens is a beast and he will carry the team along with Bell and Cannady. If Morales can get himself under control, he will be a factor off the bench.
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THOS
Freshman
Posts: 15
Reg: 01-14-07
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11-12-17 09:25 PM - Post#236052
In response to THOS
I wanted this to be a seperate post. The officials were terrible.
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umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts: 475
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-12-17 09:34 PM - Post#236054
In response to THOS
Yes, the refs stunk.
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umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts: 475
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Butler
11-12-17 09:37 PM - Post#236056
In response to gokinsmen
Hard to gauge Much and Derosiers in a very tough first game, but there is the Princeton tradition of starting very heralded freshmen and bringing the more experienced player in later who will actually get more of the minutes, with the freshman building minutes as the season goes on.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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11-12-17 10:46 PM - Post#236063
In response to umbrellaman
I was unable to listen to the second half. But, it seemed to me that we left a lot of points at the free through line in the first half. With decent FT shooting it would have been a tight game at halftime even with the previously mentioned homer reffing. Do we get this team in Jadwin next year?
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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11-13-17 01:33 AM - Post#236071
In response to THOS
Impressions — Vegas had 9 1/2 spread on game number one. How do they do it? Typical Princeton game against a good, not great non-conference home opponent — close but no cigar. As usual, Tigers demonstrate no quit spirit but cannot close. Assuming no injuries to the big 3, they should compete. Agree that Mitch should play big guys against good and big non-conference opponents but he does not. Freshmen and underclassmen are just that with rare exceptions. Finally, Ivies may not be as strong as some thought based on early returns.
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Petrie
Freshman
Posts: 42
Age: 70
Reg: 11-14-16
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11-13-17 01:53 AM - Post#236072
In response to Tiger69
Like everyone else on this board, I'm encouraged. I was one saying we needed big contributions from freshmen to be good. I thought tonight Princeton was very good, while getting nothing from freshmen. Amir Bell looked better than I've ever seen him, likewise Myles Stephens. Cannady good as usual.
I thought the blown goal tending call was pivotal - would've been 1 pt deficit, ensuing Butler score made it 5 pts, and I believe the lead only widened from there in the first half. In the second half the Morales turnover with about 5 min to go, down 5, poised to make it a one possession game, was absolute killer. The 3 pt play leading directly from the crazy pass made it 8 down.
Still you have to believe that Princeton will get much, much more from the freshmen class - they all looked the part. Obviously Henderson is a believer. By the time they get through this tough non-conference I think they'll be ready to be very significant contributors. And then there's Gladson.
All in all, plenty of reasons to be excited about the season. Beat st Joe's.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Butler
11-13-17 03:25 AM - Post#236073
In response to Petrie
From a Penn fan's perspective from for what it's worth, I think this Princeton team will be very good (best top 3 in league with Yale injuries and was prob a toss up before Yale injuries).
Obviously defense was not up to last year's standard, but watching the game I thought with that offense, overall they looked better against Butler than they did opening the year last year against teams like BYU (not as good as this Butler team will be).
Bell looks ready to fulfill the potential he has shown and Stephens looks like an IVY POY candidate.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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11-13-17 06:09 AM - Post#236074
In response to Mike Porter
Pretty much what I expected and feared. No trouble finding good shots, especially the Big Three, even against a team that emphasizes defense. (Exceptional three-point shooting by the Tigers papered over excessive TOs and missed FTs.) But the defense just wasn't there inside, with Bell and Cannady getting driven past with regularity and not much help sliding over in time. Miller, Cook, and Weisz definitely missed on D. At least they cut off Butler's ORs and loose-ball dominance in the second half for the most part.
The defense took a while to gel last season, and they got a lot better at staying connected on drives as the year wore on, so I wouldn't write their defense off, but they need to have some rim protection in there more. I also agreed with commentator Gillen that more zone would have been advisable, but then I'm a bit more pro-zone than most.
Schweger was a pleasant surprise, and looked the most solid of the freshmen to me. Derosier was passive on offense but had some promising defensive possessions. Much looked a bit overwhelmed, but his angry reaction on getting back to the bench after his turnover and foul actually looked promising; I suspect he's going to develop nicely--don't know if I like him in the post, but they might not have a lot of options there.
And let me echo comments about the horrible refereeing bias in that game. Butler collected a lot of early fouls, but so did the Tigers, and Princeton was outright robbed of six points on the goaltending and two charging calls. But, hey, that's why you have to tape your ankles when you play in a venue like that.
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