Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-26-17 08:28 AM - Post#237906
That game was disgusting, atrocious and we should not speak further about it after today. It set back the cause of college basketball years. I'm only glad "the children" didn't watch it because it went on so long because no one could be a fan of those teams or of college basketball in general if this was one of their first introductions to that sport. I should note that I don't think anyone deserves any credit for defense minus a small positive adjustment if they managed to avoid picking up a foul every 5 minutes. Let's get to the grades:
Eddie Scott: A. Plus. Plus. He was so good. So dynamic. His form looks good, he played confidently, he adapted to the game the refs were calling and played within himself (and I'm looking at you, basically everyone else). I saw him get beat a couple times on defense but given he was the defense side of an offense/defense substitution, I assume Donahue thought he was playing well enough there. He will obviously not play that well every game, but given the level of skill and dynamism he exhibited, Donahue needs to seriously consider elevating him to the starting lineup.
Betley: B-. 26 points is cool. Doing it over 55 minutes exhausts me just typing that. Too many turnovers, 1-9 from 2 point land. Not the best timing on his missed free throws. Didn't foul out. Eh, lets move him up to a B.
Woods: B-. He's so clearly not a PG. 2 assists in 50 minutes? But he's not a SG. 1-4 from 3. I was surprised he only had 3 TOs but I guess the ones he did make just stood out. Getting 14 FTs is good and hitting 70% of them serves as good on this team. Not fouling out also good.
Rothschild: C. The stats really dictate a C-. 2-8 shooting. 7-12 from the line. Fouled out. But I do give him credit for playing so long with 4 fouls when we needed him. The refs were dying to give him a 5th foul and he avoided it. One thing I will also say is that while his stats are not good enough, you can see how different it is to have him in the game vs. Simmons or Dwyer.
Simmons/Dwyer: D's. They were put in to a position too big for them and they showed it was too big. They get in the way... of their own team, there's nothing that helps the offense flow at all. That could have been a Simmons coming out party but he didn't show ready at all. They picked up a combined 6 fouls in 20 minutes and otherwise had 1 assist and a rebound. They're willing defenders but Simmons will have to be brought on slower than I hoped.
Brodeur F: 19 minutes, 4 TO, 5 fouls including very dumb fouls especially to foul out, left the guys high and dry for about 25 minutes of game time.
Foreman F: I defended him in the game thread because I feel he is unfairly maligned game to game. But THIS game? AWFUL. 1-9 shooting, fouled out in 23 minutes as a guard!?!!? A technical? Come on. The last foul he looked like he was on TILT if you know the poker expression. Awful shot on offense, rides the hip of his guy down 50 feet on the other end practically determined to pick up his 5th foul and sure enough got whistled for it.
Jackson Donahue F: Fouled out in 29 minutes and picked up a technical at basically the worst time you could pick up a technical late in OT with us up 3. 3-9 shooting. 2 turnovers, a missed free throw. And more importantly kept getting subbed in for Eddie Scott who was way better.
Sam Jones/Caleb Wood: let's call it incomplete or a D. 17 mins combined, did nothing with the time but also didn't do much bad. Mostly they were also used to sub in for Eddie on offense and shouldn't have been. I guess D given what I gave Simmons/Dwyer.
Goodman D: 1-2 from 3 for a total of 3 points in 10 minutes. No turnovers. But 3 fouls in 10 minutes. He had an opportunity with Foreman's foul trouble to run point and didn't take it.
MacDonald: B-. A good, heady 9 minutes but on the other hand, it was just 9 minutes out of an available 60, so maybe I was missing something. Missed his free throw.
Steve Donahue F-: Steve, my god steve. Steve.
The refs 'I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul". Put down the whistles you hacks. You were bad for both sides. You made the game a miserable slog BEFORE the 4 overtimes. You're not ready to work college games.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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Re: Penn Monmouth Report Card
11-26-17 09:54 AM - Post#237914
In response to Jeff2sf
I'm only glad "the children" didn't watch it because it went on so long because no one could be a fan of those teams or of college basketball in general if this was one of their first introductions to that sport.
I went to the game. With my children. It was their introduction to the sport.
Ugh.
They actually liked the game. I didn't. It was painful to watch. Thank goodness Monmouth gifted the game despite Penn's every attempt to return it. The reffing was abysmal, though not one-sided, just really bad. Just like the play of both teams.
My wife thought Woods was terrific. Maybe she wasn't paying attention during regulation. For whatever reason Woods was able to turn it on after playing 40 minutes of poor basketball because he kept getting better as the game droned on. Note to Steve Donahue : have Antonio play a full game at Hutch right before the real game.
Coming out party for Eddie Scott. Eddie, you were wonderful.
Brodeur was a defensive force before fouling out after a combination of dumb and soft fouls.
Rothschild was hampered by foul trouble and being crumpled early in the 2nd. He gets credit if only for sticking in there til the end and providing useful minutes.
Betley wasn't great but was hounded all night by the Monmouth D and made some clutch shots, though not as many as he should've. Also missed key FTs.
I was taught to keep my mouth shut when I have nothing nice to say. I'm keeping my mouth shut about the rest of the team.
Except I'm OK if I never see Jackson Donahue play again. WTF Jackson? His hotheadedness should have cost Penn the game. Every now and then he puts in a good performance but I'm not sure it's worth it.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8236
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Monmouth Report Card
11-26-17 10:12 AM - Post#237916
In response to Jeff2sf
We were entertaining last night so I could only check the score when my wife wasn’t looking. I watched most of the replay this morning (such as it was) and read the thread.
In a rare moment, I have to agree with nearly all of Jeff’s observations. This Is one of the most forgettable games I’ve ever seen in my 40+ years of following the program. The big difference is, our guys actually managed to win it when I was sure we would find a way to lose to a marginally inferior and outmanned team on the road that we just couldn’t seem to put away despite all the opportunities.
Can we learn anything from this 3.5 hour aberration? I don't know. Gotta give the upperclassmen Max, Woods, and Betley credit for showing some major grit in OT. I think our depth, such as it was, helped a bit compared to the Hawks. Scott showed me why folks are so high on him which I had not seen before. Woods, in particular rewarded my faith in him in key spots. I still don’t know know what to make of Wood. He was a non-factor here. If Jones can't hit big shots cold off the bench, he won’t see the court much. Devon? Something is just wrong there. Hope he snaps out of it. Simmons needs work. AJ? Just throw this game out. Same for Foreman. We know what we have there. Jelani & Tyler - wherefore art thou?
We can break down this bizarro game (including the internet blackout and much of the coaching and officiating) a million different ways, but it is best remembered as one we really tried to give away that Monmouth wouldn’t take. I can only imagine how their fans feel.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23368
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-26-17 10:23 AM - Post#237919
In response to Streamers
It was painful to watch. I finally shut it off during the third OT and followed it on game tracker. Much easier on my nerves.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8236
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-26-17 10:25 AM - Post#237920
In response to 10Q
I just took another look at the box score. Betley was out there for 55 minutes. Amazing line. Tells me all I need know about him.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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11-26-17 11:33 AM - Post#237928
In response to Streamers
As much as JD was cringeworthy, he can't get a flat out F. When he first came into the game, he provided some desperately needed offense. So maybe give him a D or D+.
The refs also need a grade--F. They must have been served SPAM on Thanksgiving or something. The reason the game went so long wasn't primarily because it went 4 OTs but rather because so many fouls were called.
And they never really let up. And they called every kind of foul you could think of, and then some (not including the 3-4 lane violations on Monmouth that bailed us out on multiple occasions).
Heck, the game could have gone even longer had either team actually made its share of 1 and 1s at the line.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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11-26-17 12:01 PM - Post#237934
In response to penn nation
As much as JD was cringeworthy, he can't get a flat out F.
Oh no, the F was well earned. If there's a lower grade to give him then he deserves that instead. His performance was disgraceful.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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11-26-17 12:04 PM - Post#237935
In response to TheLine
I agree with all of the negatives.
But without him coming into the game, we probably go down double digits early on.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-26-17 12:04 PM - Post#237936
In response to TheLine
yeah, the SECOND T of the game was just... I could perhaps look past it if it was the first t and you were surprised the refs were going to call it so closely. But a junior can't get that T. Just can't.
As for the refs, their performance, while in no way one-sided, does not deserve to be placed on a conventional A-F scale. Thus awarding them no points and may god have mercy on their souls.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-27-17 03:09 AM - Post#238011
In response to Jeff2sf
Really a brilliant game by Eddie Scott minus his FT shooting. Let's hope this was a breakout game and a massive confidence builder for him. Those two dunks... has been a long while since we have seen dunks like that in real gameplay with game on the line.
Also wish Simmons was further along, but you can see he has all the tools to be really good. Hoping for a Koko Archibong type arch (didn't play much early frosh season, started by Ivy slate but don't recall him breaking out until Soph year). Don't see him starting, but I'd like to see him be first big off the bench and producing by end of season.
Believe Williams is supposed to be cleared to fully practice by end of week. Here's to hoping he is healthy and can jump into rotation by end of year.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3775
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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11-27-17 07:39 AM - Post#238014
In response to Mike Porter
I think we should temper our expectations re: Jelani Williams. It's great he's going to be cleared to practice and play, but it might be awhile before he's ready to play at the D1 level. That might not actually come until next season.
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1st UP
Sophomore
Posts: 185
Loc: Denver
Reg: 11-11-09
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11-27-17 08:49 AM - Post#238017
In response to Silver Maple
I believe we had a player (Henry Brooks?) who came to Penn with a similar injury in his senior HS year. He played immediately, seemed to be pushed prematurely and never regained his HS form and hopes.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8236
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-27-17 09:30 AM - Post#238022
In response to Silver Maple
I think we should temper our expectations re: Jelani Williams. It's great he's going to be cleared to practice and play, but it might be awhile before he's ready to play at the D1 level. That might not actually come until next season.
I’m as anxious as anyone to see what we have in Williams. OTOH, I believe Woods and Foreman have been a lot better than what we were getting last year and believe we can win with them, especially if Goodman figures it out and brings what he did last year. Rushing Jelani into the lineup would be a mistake at this stage. We will likely get a good look at him come January.
Question to all those who want to see Eddie Scott get more minutes after his one very impressive outing Saturday: whose minutes does he take away? Thoughts on that?
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T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts: 1171
Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
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11-27-17 09:47 AM - Post#238023
In response to Silver Maple
I think we should temper our expectations re: Jelani Williams. It's great he's going to be cleared to practice and play, but it might be awhile before he's ready to play at the D1 level. That might not actually come until next season.
If that's the case, I wonder if he might just take a medical redshirt this year and come out fresh next year and have a full four year career. (Assuming this is legal under Ivy/NCAA rules.)
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-27-17 09:51 AM - Post#238025
In response to T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
You have to apply for it before your 4th year of play and it is contingent upon not graduating in that time, but it is routinely granted in medical cases.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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11-27-17 10:06 AM - Post#238033
In response to palestra38
Jelani was at the Monmouth game in street clothes - or at least some dude who looks like his photo on the Penn athletics site. Was out at the top of the arc during warmups. Took just one shot that I saw from a couple of feet beyond the arc. Swished it.
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13otto
Masters Student
Posts: 779
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-27-17 10:58 AM - Post#238046
In response to Streamers
Question to all those who want to see Eddie Scott get more minutes after his one very impressive outing Saturday: whose minutes does he take away? Thoughts on that?
Eddie should start at the 3, with AJ & Max at the 4 & 5, and Ryan at the 2. We should not be playing two small point guards together for the majority of the minutes.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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Penn Monmouth Report Card
11-27-17 11:02 AM - Post#238047
In response to 13otto
While I don't necessarily disagree, the problem with that lineup is when players start getting into foul trouble. I'd feel better about it if I had more confidence that Dwyer and/or Simmons could hold their own.
The other issue is that lineup would still leave Betley as the only outside shooter on the court to start the game. Unfortunately I don't think we have a remedy for that problem on the roster.
Edited by TheLine on 11-27-17 11:04 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12530
Reg: 12-07-04
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Penn Monmouth Report Card
11-27-17 01:09 PM - Post#238082
In response to 1st UP
I know the game was awful but waking up Sunday was much brighter since they won. It's certainly better to be on the winning end and I'm sure the guys felt pretty good. After the heartbreaker to LaSalle, they needed it.
A few more things on Eddie. He really grabbed some man boards down there and his skip pass to Betley for a 3 was not something I expected to see from him this early. He obviously knows the game, as evidenced by the putback slam to tie, and I can't wait to watch him develop. I don't remember the scouting reports but he fills a huge need and deserves to play.
I think the grades are pretty on the mark. I just have so many questions but it's probably best to write this one off entirely. As for Devon, what in the world has happened to his jump shot? It never really inspired much confidence, but it looks completely broken. I know he banked in the one from the top of the key, but you can't rely on that all season.
I believe we had a player (Henry Brooks?) who came to Penn with a similar injury in his senior HS year. He played immediately, seemed to be pushed prematurely and never regained his HS form and hopes.
Sometimes the player has to want to get better, to actually get better...
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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11-27-17 02:06 PM - Post#238095
In response to Quakers03
Right. I sense Jelani is more the type who wants it.
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