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Username Post: FT shooting        (Topic#20807)
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21086

Reg: 12-02-04
12-07-17 05:46 PM - Post#239562    

In our 10 DI games, Penn's FT% currently sits at 60.1%--12.5 makes per game.

This ranks 344th out of 351 DI schools.

Ivy leader: Brown at 78.4% (17th)--21.0 makes per game.

 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3988

Reg: 11-23-04
12-07-17 08:19 PM - Post#239583    
    In response to penn nation

College age may be a little late to try to make material changes in FT shooting fundamentals and results. There are more notable failures than successes.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21086

Reg: 12-02-04
12-07-17 08:58 PM - Post#239587    
    In response to Old Bear

True, but DNH is a recent success story.

It's hard to recall a Penn team, though, that has had so many players who have fallen short in this area.

 
T.P.F.K.A.D.W. 
PhD Student
Posts: 1169

Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
FT shooting
12-08-17 10:11 AM - Post#239609    
    In response to penn nation

  • penn nation Said:
True, but DNH is a recent success story.



Fran Dougherty is another.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/fran-...

As is Ugonna Onyekwe.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/ugonn...

Seems to me that free throw shooting IS something that can be improved upon.

Edited by T.P.F.K.A.D.W. on 12-08-17 10:13 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
rbg 
Postdoc
Posts: 3044

Reg: 10-20-14
12-08-17 10:35 AM - Post#239612    
    In response to T.P.F.K.A.D.W.

FWIW, I went looking at Brown's FT% during and just before the Mike Martin Era started in 2012-2013

2017-2018: 78%
2016-2017: 76%
2015-2016: 70%
2014-2015: 69%
2013-2014: 67%
2012-2013: 63%

2011-2012: 63%

I haven't looked closely enough at those numbers to know if the players in his earlier years improved over time due to the staff's teaching and/or the recruited athletes arrived with stronger FT skills.

Maybe someone from the Brown board knows more about how they improved drastically over the last few years.



 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21086

Reg: 12-02-04
12-08-17 11:01 AM - Post#239616    
    In response to rbg

Depends on the situation, but it can take as little as having one really good FT shooter who gets to the line a lot.

With Brown, it appears Spieth drove this a lot, as did Blackmon.

Certainly Rosen did with Penn--the rest of the team wasn't all that impressive but his stats were so good that the team as a whole didn't look so bad.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3765

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
12-08-17 11:25 AM - Post#239621    
    In response to penn nation

My feeling is that you can get by with some lousy free throw shooters on your team, as long as your PG isn't one of them. And maybe your SG too. If neither of those guys is an excellent FT shooter, you're virtually guaranteed to lose a bunch of close games at the line. So, put another way, if there were ONE thing that I could magically change about Darnell Forman right now, it would be his FT shooting.

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3580

Reg: 02-15-15
12-08-17 11:35 AM - Post#239623    
    In response to Silver Maple

That said, Foreman is in the top 15 in the league in FT%. It is magnified when you don't make front end of 1 and 1's at the end of games. So I would prefer Darnell magically improves his FT shooting in those situations! Even making the front end of a 1 and 1 at the end of a game and missing the second one is an improvement I would take.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21086

Reg: 12-02-04
12-08-17 11:42 AM - Post#239625    
    In response to PennFan10

  • PennFan10 Said:
That said, Foreman is in the top 15 in the league in FT%.



Considering he is shooting 66.6% in his 10 DI games, I highly doubt he's even in the Top 75.


 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21086

Reg: 12-02-04
12-08-17 11:46 AM - Post#239626    
    In response to Silver Maple

It's a testament to the rest of his game that despite having horrible FG%, 3 pt FG% and FT% he is a starting guard. He doesn't turn the ball over, he has the ability at times to finish around the basket, he is a good rebounding guard and--when avoiding the tendency to launch shots--is a decent floor general.

 
TheLine 
Professor
Posts: 5597

Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
12-08-17 12:23 PM - Post#239630    
    In response to penn nation

  • penn nation Said:
  • PennFan10 Said:
That said, Foreman is in the top 15 in the league in FT%.



Considering he is shooting 66.6% in his 10 DI games, I highly doubt he's even in the Top 75.



I wonder if D-I teams are better at defending FTs than D-III teams.


 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
12-08-17 12:24 PM - Post#239631    
    In response to TheLine

I think we should choose to have Caleb shoot 3s, instead of having a bunch of our guys shooting FTs

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3580

Reg: 02-15-15
12-08-17 12:38 PM - Post#239633    
    In response to penn nation

FREE THROW PCT
1. Hunsaker, Zach-BRWN
2. Cannady, Devin-PRIN
3. Gettings, Stone-COR
4. Anderson, Brandon-BRWN
5. Morgan, Matt-COR
6. Cambridge, Desmond-BRWN
7. Oni, Miye-YALE
8. Aiken, Bryce-HARV
9. SMITH, Mike-COL
10. Betley, Ryan-PENN
11. Knight, Chris-DART
12. HICKMAN, Nate-COL
13. Towns, Seth-HARV
14. Bell, Amir-PRIN SR
15. Foreman, Darnell-PENN

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 4466

Reg: 11-22-04
12-08-17 12:39 PM - Post#239634    
    In response to penn nation

PN, minor thing but while I want to strip out the non-D1 stats as much as the next guy, I'm not sure you need to do with free throw rate. Unless the pressure is just SO much less, it's a free throw stripe. I feel those data points are just as relevant as what he shot against Howard or whatever.

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3580

Reg: 02-15-15
12-08-17 12:40 PM - Post#239635    
    In response to PennFan10

Darnell leads the league in Assist/TO ratio as well at 2.1. Mike Smith is the only other player over 2.0 in the league. I think that is simply a testament to the fact that Darnell doesn't turn the ball over much, which is obviously a good thing.

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3580

Reg: 02-15-15
12-08-17 12:41 PM - Post#239636    
    In response to palestra38

  • palestra38 Said:
I think we should choose to have Caleb shoot 3s, instead of having a bunch of our guys shooting FTs



This is a brilliant strategy! Similar % and worth more points.


 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21086

Reg: 12-02-04
FT shooting
12-08-17 12:47 PM - Post#239638    
    In response to Jeff2sf

  • Jeff2sf Said:
PN, minor thing but while I want to strip out the non-D1 stats as much as the next guy, I'm not sure you need to do with free throw rate. Unless the pressure is just SO much less, it's a free throw stripe. I feel those data points are just as relevant as what he shot against Howard or whatever.



All things being equal, it's probably easier to shoot FTs playing against PS--Brandwyne than against Nova.


Edited by penn nation on 12-08-17 12:54 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
TheLine 
Professor
Posts: 5597

Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
12-08-17 12:51 PM - Post#239639    
    In response to penn nation

Because the Nova FTs are with the game on the line?


 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
12-08-17 12:52 PM - Post#239640    
    In response to TheLine

No, but they were shaking that whole building. Atmosphere this year in the Palestra? Uh, less active

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21086

Reg: 12-02-04
12-08-17 12:52 PM - Post#239641    
    In response to PennFan10

  • PennFan10 Said:
FREE THROW PCT
1. Hunsaker, Zach-BRWN
2. Cannady, Devin-PRIN
3. Gettings, Stone-COR
4. Anderson, Brandon-BRWN
5. Morgan, Matt-COR
6. Cambridge, Desmond-BRWN
7. Oni, Miye-YALE
8. Aiken, Bryce-HARV
9. SMITH, Mike-COL
10. Betley, Ryan-PENN
11. Knight, Chris-DART
12. HICKMAN, Nate-COL
13. Towns, Seth-HARV
14. Bell, Amir-PRIN SR
15. Foreman, Darnell-PENN



I am guessing that the total denominator of qualified shooters is sufficiently small in this chart...don't know what the minimum # of FTs per game is for what you've posted here.




 
TheLine 
Professor
Posts: 5597

Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
12-08-17 02:56 PM - Post#239661    
    In response to penn nation

LOL, Darnell was 3-4 vs. Nova.

If you want to pick on him then how about 3 pt shooting? Hasn't hit any since Towson. Looks tight as a drum.


 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3580

Reg: 02-15-15
12-08-17 03:17 PM - Post#239665    
    In response to penn nation

  • penn nation Said:
  • PennFan10 Said:
FREE THROW PCT
1. Hunsaker, Zach-BRWN
2. Cannady, Devin-PRIN
3. Gettings, Stone-COR
4. Anderson, Brandon-BRWN
5. Morgan, Matt-COR
6. Cambridge, Desmond-BRWN
7. Oni, Miye-YALE
8. Aiken, Bryce-HARV
9. SMITH, Mike-COL
10. Betley, Ryan-PENN
11. Knight, Chris-DART
12. HICKMAN, Nate-COL
13. Towns, Seth-HARV
14. Bell, Amir-PRIN SR
15. Foreman, Darnell-PENN



I am guessing that the total denominator of qualified shooters is sufficiently small in this chart...don't know what the minimum # of FTs per game is for what you've posted here.






Could be that better shooters don't have enough to register, though the smallest number of attempts on the list is 18 and the most is 90. Anderson from Brown has 90, Aiken 70, Mike Smith 42 and Darnell 41. 3 on this list have 18-22 attempts. Here is the link to Ivy Stats page:

http://static.ivyleague.com/custompages/sports/mb k...

 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3988

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: FTs
12-08-17 03:41 PM - Post#239677    
    In response to rbg

  • rbg Said:
FWIW, I went looking at Brown's FT% during and just before the Mike Martin Era started in 2012-2013

2017-2018: 78%
2016-2017: 76%
2015-2016: 70%
2014-2015: 69%
2013-2014: 67%
2012-2013: 63%

2011-2012: 63%

I haven't looked closely enough at those numbers to know if the players in his earlier years improved over time due to the staff's teaching and/or the recruited athletes arrived with stronger FT skills.

Maybe someone from the Brown board knows more about how they improved drastically over the last few years.





I think its a matter of who gets the shots. If you have a poor FT shooter who gets fouled a lot, that's a problem. This year Brown has three really good FT shooters, Hunsacker, Anderson and Cambridge (Spieth last year) who have the ball a lot and get fouled. A few players do improve over college experience, most don't. I know the MM emphasizes FT shooting in practice, butI doubt that Brown practices more or better than other teams.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21086

Reg: 12-02-04
FT shooting
12-08-17 04:20 PM - Post#239690    
    In response to PennFan10

The basic point being that Foreman isn't even Top 5 on his own team, well, actually he is, but that's damning praise for sure which has one of the worst DI FT%s.

So if you can concoct a stat that somehow shows him to be Top 15 Ivy....that stat is pretty meaningless IMHO.

Edited by penn nation on 12-08-17 04:23 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
FT shooting
12-08-17 04:31 PM - Post#239696    
    In response to TheLine

Forget FTs...that 3 point shot is key. Foreman is only 13% so far---4 for 29. Beyond awful. We'e shooting better from halfcourt for the $5000 bucks at halftime.

But our defense is better this year.

 
TheLine 
Professor
Posts: 5597

Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
Re: FT shooting
12-08-17 04:35 PM - Post#239698    
    In response to penn nation

But PN, the stat is a FT% leaderboard for the league. What else would you like to use?

Are we so used to crapping on players that we just crap on them regardless?

Or is this a #FakeNews thing I'm not getting and the joke's on me?


 
yoyo 
Senior
Posts: 354

Reg: 03-25-09
FT shooting
12-08-17 04:46 PM - Post#239701    
    In response to PennFan10

  • PennFan10 Said:
Darnell leads the league in Assist/TO ratio as well at 2.1. Mike Smith is the only other player over 2.0 in the league. I think that is simply a testament to the fact that Darnell doesn't turn the ball over much, which is obviously a good thing. [/quote


unless you start counting air balls from 5' a turnover

Edited by yoyo on 12-08-17 04:47 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3580

Reg: 02-15-15
Re: FT shooting
12-08-17 05:26 PM - Post#239705    
    In response to penn nation

  • penn nation Said:
The basic point being that Foreman isn't even Top 5 on his own team, well, actually he is, but that's damning praise for sure which has one of the worst DI FT%s.

So if you can concoct a stat that somehow shows him to be Top 15 Ivy....that stat is pretty meaningless IMHO.



As stated, this isn't my stat, it's not concocted, it's from the Ivy League stat board. I didn't put his name on there. If it were up to me I would have only listed the top 14.

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3580

Reg: 02-15-15
Re: FT shooting
12-08-17 05:28 PM - Post#239706    
    In response to yoyo

  • yoyo Said:
  • PennFan10 Said:
Darnell leads the league in Assist/TO ratio as well at 2.1. Mike Smith is the only other player over 2.0 in the league. I think that is simply a testament to the fact that Darnell doesn't turn the ball over much, which is obviously a good thing. [/quote


unless you start counting air balls from 5' a turnover



Rabbit hole. I get your point but we count blocked shots as shots and airballs as shots and contested 3's that result in layups at the other end as shots....all of these function as turnovers no?


 
TheLine 
Professor
Posts: 5597

Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
Re: FT shooting
12-08-17 05:35 PM - Post#239709    
    In response to PennFan10

Plus it's double counting - a missed shot shows up in FG% as it should.

But I think Foreman hasn't been bad at FG% close to the rim (I can't find Mike's link to the site that has this info). He has been dreadful shooting at distance.


 
Cvonvorys 
Postdoc
Posts: 4438
Cvonvorys
Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
Reg: 10-11-06
Re: FT shooting
12-08-17 06:05 PM - Post#239714    
    In response to TheLine

And that has been my criticism for Darnell... He takes too many low percentage shots. Penn as a team should strive to take higher percentage shots on every possession. A Darnell three with 20 seconds left on the shot clock is probably not the best use of that possession. A Ryan three, a Caleb three, a Sam three, a Jackson three, heck maybe even a Jake three with 20 seconds left on the shot clock maybe...

We don't lose another game this year if Darnell attempts fewer than 10 field goals in a game (according to year-long trends).

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
12-08-17 06:16 PM - Post#239715    
    In response to Cvonvorys

Darnell is 63% at the rim. Woods is 48%. Only 12% of Darnell's attempts at the rim are assisted while 46% of Woods' are. 40% of Darnell's shots are at the rim. 33% of Woods' are.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
12-08-17 06:31 PM - Post#239719    
    In response to mrjames

So I guess Woods is more effective with 2 point jumpers given that he shoots virtually the same percentage as Foreman from 2 points....and a lofty .32 from 3, which is double Foreman's rate.

But they both are playing great defense and the biggest difference I see this year is that Penn is not giving up nearly the number of wide open 3s as they did in the past, oh 5 years. They are contesting better at the perimeter and at the hoop with the twin towers, meaning that they are playing better defense.

 
TheLine 
Professor
Posts: 5597

Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
FT shooting
12-08-17 06:40 PM - Post#239720    
    In response to palestra38

Woods and Foreman battle real well to get over the picks. They'll switch when they can't. Woods in particular has played nice D when mismatched against a taller opponent.

Woods has been shooting better from distance and making nice decisions. When he shoots early in the clock it's typically right on the arc and wide open, otherwise he passes or drives.



 
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