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Brown Columbia Cornell Dartmouth Harvard Penn Princeton Yale



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Username Post: Tops in the league on Pomeroy!        (Topic#20833)
AsiaSunset 
Postdoc
Posts: 3781

Reg: 11-21-04
12-24-17 07:52 AM - Post#241241    
    In response to SomeGuy

That's possible although the couple times I've seen them it's Cannady who seems to be the floor leader. Sometimes with these motion offenses and switching man to man defenses the guards basically are interchangeable.

Still - while they have three players who excel at attacking the basket I think Cannady is the guy they want handling the ball at the end of the half or the game.

Even on our team it's often hard to say who the point guard is. I think Darnell brings the ball up more than Antonio, but once that ball starts moving, discerning who the point guard is and who the shooting guard is is kind of a useless exercise. What's clear is that our end of shot clock options are less attractive than theirs because Cannady can beat his man off the dribble, hit the jumpshot from distance and get to the line where he makes a very high % of his FTs.

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4966

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
12-24-17 09:45 AM - Post#241244    
    In response to AsiaSunset

Completely disagree.

Aiken is the best point guard in the league. He's second in the league in assist rate, he's using over 30% of Harvard's possessions and he's got a 100 offensive rating while shooting just 21% from three, which will improve and bring his efficiency along with it. He's elite in PnR action according to the synergy stats, he's won 3 game MVPs in 9 D1 games he's played this year, and Harvard has looked LOST offensively without him.

Everyone on these boards seems to discount Bryce for some reason - maybe because of his incoming rating and the expectations placed up on him? But the coaches would be pretty overwhelmingly in favor of Bryce as the best PG (which is what many considered to be a surprising choice as 1st team All-Ivy last year).

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 939

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
12-24-17 10:52 AM - Post#241248    
    In response to mrjames

Cannaday averages 1.2 assts/game in 36.8 min/game. More TO's than assists. Very talented, but not a PG.

 
AsiaSunset 
Postdoc
Posts: 3781

Reg: 11-21-04
12-24-17 11:15 AM - Post#241250    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

I agree to a certain extent but the Princeton offense relies on rapid ball movement, back cuts and a lot of inside outside ball movement. The assist leader on a good Princeton team is more likely to be a player like Spencer Weisz. Yet Cannady is the guy who pilots that team especially down the stretch and he's a big reason they look like the team to beat right now. Plus - Cannady hustles on defense.

As for Aiken, perhaps I downgrade him a bit because he sort of reminds me of Tony Hicks e.g. a very talented player who seems like an indifferent defender and does really make those around him better. And - if we are going to live and die by the stats - he's performing at a very mediocre level on a talented Harvard squad that looks a bit dysfunctional 12 games into the season. He's not nearly the player Chambers was at this point in his career understanding that he has a long way to go to show he did indeed deserve 1st team All Ivy accolades last year. The challenge Harvard faces is that the back up options are not great so they can't afford this year's version of Bryce Aiken when he returns to the lineup if they hope to live up to their preseason billing.

 
mrjames 
Postdoc
Posts: 4966

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
12-24-17 12:21 PM - Post#241252    
    In response to AsiaSunset

  • Quote:
As for Aiken, perhaps I downgrade him a bit because he sort of reminds me of Tony Hicks e.g. a very talented player who seems like an indifferent defender and does really make those around him better.



Tony Hicks was indeed high usage and had a style like Bryce, but that's really where the similarities stop. Tony at Penn was VERY consistently around 30% usage, but was also very consistently in the low 90s ORAT. Bryce has been at similar usage, but in the low-to-mid 100s (and unless you assume Aiken truly is a 21% 3-point shooter, would be more like mid-to-upper 100s). Even with those struggles, Bryce is currently the 90th most efficient player in the country to use 28% or more of team possessions.

I assume you meant "doesn't really make those around him better," but through the Kentucky game (haven't loaded Fordham in and he didn't play in the last two anyway), Harvard was 103/101 with him on the floor and 70/97 with him off it.

  • Quote:
And - if we are going to live and die by the stats - he's performing at a very mediocre level on a talented Harvard squad that looks a bit dysfunctional 12 games into the season.



Again, 90th most efficient player in the country using 28% of team possessions and that's with a 3PT% that will rise and bring his efficiency further up that list. Last year, he was the 64th most efficient player in the country to use 28% of team possessions. I view it as "carrying" a talented Harvard squad, but I guess 90th most efficient high-usage player in the country is mediocre now?

  • Quote:
He's not nearly the player Chambers was at this point in his career understanding that he has a long way to go to show he did indeed deserve 1st team All Ivy accolades last year.



He is way, way, way better than Chambers. How is this even a question? Chambers had the luxury of picking his spots and carried a roughly average usage rate throughout his career, while always deferring to a primary option (Saunders his first three years and Aiken last year). Chambers' best year from a TO Rate perspective was equal to Aiken's average. People seem to forget that his junior year was pretty average, he wasn't a great shooter as a junior or senior and had very little ability to finish at the rim. Chambers happened to play better in league play than in the non-conf throughout his career, which may cause other teams' fans to remember him in a bit rosier light than his overall performance would dictate, but you'd be hard-pressed to find someone that would take Chambers over Aiken.

  • Quote:
The challenge Harvard faces is that the back up options are not great so they can't afford this year's version of Bryce Aiken when he returns to the lineup if they hope to live up to their preseason billing.



Very true that Harvard's backup PG options are all below replacement-level. But Harvard would be just fine with a 100 ORAT, 30% usage player in its lineup. It's the rest of the rotation that has been, with the exception of Chris Lewis, sub-par that has hurt Harvard more than anything.

Oh yeah, and when Harvard starts hitting threes, including Bryce himself, boosting his Assist Rate and eFG, he's going to have himself another All-Ivy First Team nod.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4315

Reg: 11-22-04
12-27-17 10:27 AM - Post#241364    
    In response to AsiaSunset

Cannady pilots the team at the end of games because he is a tremendous free throw shooter and a good ball handler. At least to my eye, he does not pilot the team the rest of the game. The Princeton board certainly seems to view Bell as the PG. While Cannady has a different skill set from Betley, I'd kind of like to see Penn do something similar at the end of games. Let him become the PG during the last 2 minutes, and make them foul our best shooter.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4315

Reg: 11-22-04
12-27-17 10:37 AM - Post#241367    
    In response to mrjames

I assume Harvard (and Aiken) will be there at the end. But both will need better results. He'll rightly get the benefit of the doubt if Harvard is 10-4 and in the playoff. If Harvard plays the way they have OOC (including the 3s not going in), they could actually miss the playoff. And then Aiken is just another high usage, high volume, reasonably efficient guy like Mike Smith.

The other interesting question here is who is really a point guard. Is Matt Morgan a point guard with Bathurst and McBride out? Morgan is playing at an unbelievable level in terms of both usage and efficiency.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2193

Reg: 11-23-04
12-27-17 02:27 PM - Post#241381    
    In response to SomeGuy

I'm hopeful but doubt that Harvard will not eventually find its groove. But, even if it doesn't, it is hard to imagine them not making the Tournament. Assuming the P's and y make it, what other team could displace them?

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 939

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
12-27-17 02:55 PM - Post#241382    
    In response to Tiger69

If Columbia gets Castlin back, they could contend. Despite being 1-10, only losses by >10 were at Villanova, BC and Penn State, and no loss has been by >15. Almost beat UConn. Best FT shooting team with size and top notch PG. Record would be better if Castlin and Meisner has been more available.

Brown’s offense is also impressive and Cornell has pieces. Looks like Cambridge or Morgan can score 30+. No team is so good that they aren’t vulnerable.

Could be wild

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4315

Reg: 11-22-04
12-27-17 11:39 PM - Post#241424    
    In response to Tiger69

As of Dec 10 when mrjames posted numbers, Harvard was only 205 nationally in efficiency for this season (their higher kenpom rank depended on the pre-baked stuff from last year). There's been some good and bad since then, but I doubt they've changed a whole heck of a lot, and Brown and Cornell have probably helped themselves. So while Harvard probably will be fine, if they play the way they have thus far, they really might not be.

 
weinhauers_ghost 
Masters Student
Posts: 870

Age: 58
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
12-28-17 10:02 AM - Post#241434    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Dartmouth looked far better than I thought they would against Notre Dame (though this year's edition is probably not one of ND's stronger teams). They might well be able to spring a Saturday night ambush or two on league foes.

 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1302

Reg: 02-15-15
12-28-17 10:49 AM - Post#241439    
    In response to weinhauers_ghost

As good as Dartmouth looked against ND, they were horrific 3 nights earlier in a bad loss to University of Illinois at Chicago, an average Horizon league team.

I think the idea we would have 3 top 100 teams was a bit ambitious, we will be lucky to have 1 top 100 team at any point this season.

 
JadwinGeorge 
Junior
Posts: 243

Age: 69
Reg: 12-04-15
12-28-17 10:51 AM - Post#241442    
    In response to weinhauers_ghost

Hard to read the OOC tea leaves this season. Biggest story is Yale's loss of Bruner and Mason. Second is probably Penn's return to respectability and probable contention for the Ivy title, especially playing at home. Third is Columbia's woeful start, although no one will be shocked if they turn things around in Ivy play. Fourth is Dartmouth's hanging in there without Boudreaux. They went toe-to-toe with ND. They should improve as they go. Fifth must be the enigmatic start to Harvard's season. Amaker has certainly used some quirky, let's go with that, lineups. Not sure what it means for the long haul but we have not seen what we all expected to see in Cambridge. For sixth I suggest that Brian Earl has Cornell very much on the right track. Morgan is a probable first teamer and he has plenty of help up and down the bench. Mike Morgan's Brown team is the seventh best story so far. They won't stop anybody, as usual, but they will score and score and score....The Tigers' OOC is the eighth biggest story this year, only because it has unfolded pretty much as Henderson designed it. Tough games, mostly on the road. Freshmen worked into the lineup. Rocky start at 2-6 including a 49 point half by Lehigh at Jadwin, but a 5-1 finish. Seem familiar? I expect the wildest scramble this year, wilder than last season's final weekend when three, or was it four?, teams remained alive for the last tourney berth. I will not be surprised if two or three slots are open in the last week this year.

 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 3376

Age: 54
Reg: 07-07-09
01-07-18 01:27 PM - Post#242596    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

Princeton now tops in KP rating.

I'll take the win.


 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3016

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
01-07-18 08:37 PM - Post#242624    
    In response to TheLine

It'll take a lot to pass Princeton in the KP and Sagarin. That has a lot to do with the fact that our non-conference schedule came with a little paper wrapper, pink frosting and sprinkles.

 
rbg 
Masters Student
Posts: 592

Reg: 10-20-14
01-08-18 04:30 PM - Post#242738    
    In response to Silver Maple

Good news, bad news from the folks at NBC College Basketball Talk.

http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2018/01/08/...

They have Penn listed as the Ivy rep for the first time all season. However, they have the Quakers playing a play-in game against Texas Southern (SWAC) for a #16 seed.

At least the First Four game is in Dayton where Penn is 1-0 this year!

 
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