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Username Post: At Lafayette        (Topic#20930)
Bison137 
Professor
Posts: 13381
Bison137
Reg: 01-23-06
Re: At Lafayette
01-09-18 10:04 PM - Post#242826    
    In response to Old Bison

  • Old Bison Said:
137 - I realize you have qualified your post by saying 1-4 seconds. The distinction I see is that LU was out of TO"s. I don't think it was appealing for ND to stop the clock for them under any circumstance. There are two dangers; one, he sees the wrap up coming, shoots at the same time and the ref gives them the homer call that he drew the foul in the act. Two, he converts the two FT's and you can't inbound in 5 ticks and the holocaust outcome changes from OT to a potential loss. Imagine the Tuesday morning QBing on that! The really uncanny thing was it was a replay of the HC action when we were forced into OT at Sojka in the PL. Tough call either way...damned if you do



First, to set the stage: Lafayette still had one timeout left. Each team gets one timeout added for the OT. Bucknell at that point had three timeouts left.

Your first scenario is why I said there were two specific opportunities to foul when they couldn't take a shot, i.e. first when LC was grabbing the rebound facing away from the basket; and secondly, when Petrie was in the middle of a dribble with the ball not in his hand. However if you foul when they are inside the arc - as was the case just after the rebound - it is fine as long as they don't have a makeable shot.

As for the second scenario, two comments: First, Bucknell has been very good inbounding the ball against the press this year; Second, BU had timeouts left, so they would be able to draw up an inbound play; and third, if they got in trouble on the inbound, they could take another timeout. (And even another one.) Or they would just have to lob a high pass past midcourt. The odds of LC intercepting a pass 50 feet from the basket and immediately releasing a successfull shot is remote.

I'll just repeat that virtually every NBA team fouls in that situation once the clock is down to five or fewer seconds. Stan Van Gundy says the magic number is six seconds. Phil Jackson says it is five seconds. But for virtually every coach, it is no less than four seconds.

Two other factors are (a) the foul must be committed when the other team has no chance to launch a three as the foul occurs; and (b) your team must have competent rebounders in the two interior spots on the free throws. Bucknell has two of the league's top three rebounders.

Btw, I'm told that BU wanted to foul Champion intentionally when he corralled the airball, but no-one was able to get to him.




 
Bison137 
Professor
Posts: 13381
Bison137
Reg: 01-23-06
Re: At Lafayette
01-09-18 10:09 PM - Post#242827    
    In response to Old Bison

  • Old Bison Said:
I don't know how you watch replays so I can't see the final play in regulation. If anything appeared egregious in my estimation it was why BM didn't pickup Petrie earlier on the first attempt. They inbounded at 12 ticks and the kid dribbled up and took a three from two feet behind the line. Am I wrong in that from someone who has access to the replay? Can anyone post a link to that segment of the archive? Love to see again




The shot was from about 3.5 feet behind the arc, but your point is well taken. Bruce played normal M2M defense, staying back a bit to make sure Petrie didn't try to blow by him. But at that point, with just under 8 seconds left, defending the three should be, by far, the major consideration.

Btw, Stephen Brown didn't box out Jaworski after the miss, which led to his rebound that set up the basket.




 
Old Bison 
Junior
Posts: 215

Age: 60
Reg: 07-09-17
01-09-18 11:13 PM - Post#242828    
    In response to Bison137

137 - the additional TO in OT is irrelevant - if I’m not mistaken OHanlon used up his last TO with circa 1:10 left in regulation (I haven’t checked BRW’s link yet, nor checked the ESPN game flow because I was watching a movie but will do so tomorrow. I understand fully your points but I think the guy in the corner got the ball back to Petrie by the time any bison got close enough to foul him. I’m not sure I’m correct about that either...considering all the high rebounds that LU kept getting for second shots and the flashbacks to HC I was in shock. If I were in shorts and a strap shirt I probably would have wrapped someone up. If you stop the clock and foul a tragic ending can in fact result in a loss. If you play it straight the tragic ending is OT. Good pull out in OT despite a bad offensive showing. Bison bent but didn’t break. I do want to look at the D on the first shot though as opposed to the second.

 
Old Bison 
Junior
Posts: 215

Age: 60
Reg: 07-09-17
01-09-18 11:19 PM - Post#242829    
    In response to Old Bison

I agree with your postscript. Petrie blowing by him wasn’t the primary defensive priority if everyone was instructed to stay home in the huddle. If Petrie drives the length of the court and scores a two I don’t think the timekeeper can just arbitrarily stop the clock. Bison can walk around for a couple of seconds before anyone goes near picking it up to inbound...NO?

 
Old Bison 
Junior
Posts: 215

Age: 60
Reg: 07-09-17
01-10-18 08:35 AM - Post#242831    
    In response to Old Bison

BRW - TX for the link BTW (you know btw don’t you?)

 
BisonRoadWarrior 
Postdoc
Posts: 4416
BisonRoadWarrior
Loc: Where the Bison Roam
Reg: 08-16-06
01-10-18 10:00 AM - Post#242835    
    In response to Old Bison

  • Old Bison Said:
(you know btw don’t you?)

Was he a Bison guard in the late 60s?


 
res 
Masters Student
Posts: 675

Reg: 03-21-06
01-10-18 10:23 AM - Post#242837    
    In response to BisonRoadWarrior

I get the "btw", but what the hell does Texas have to do with anything?


 
Old Bison 
Junior
Posts: 215

Age: 60
Reg: 07-09-17
01-10-18 10:36 AM - Post#242840    
    In response to res

Look at you BRW...not only is your mental acuity improving, you're learning the art of subtle sarcasm. I think from reading over the years w/o posting however that you had a certain latent talent in that area. Texas again, I watched the last play three times and had the following takeaways.

1. Zach's walk was very subtle, he backed out and established his right foot as the pivot and then released it from the ground on his fade-away.
2. SB wasn't in position to foul in the corner but Zach was (except he had 4 fouls and probably didn't want to get DQ'd)
3. Bruce played really good defense on the last shot attempt except leaving his feet cut off Zach and the kid made a really good play by recognizing he still had time and good spin out of the double.
4. We're lucky the kid just didn't drill the 1st attempt from the key...BM gave him lots of room

 
Bison137 
Professor
Posts: 13381
Bison137
Reg: 01-23-06
01-10-18 11:26 AM - Post#242845    
    In response to Old Bison

  • Old Bison Said:
137 - the additional TO in OT is irrelevant - if I’m not mistaken OHanlon used up his last TO with circa 1:10 left in regulation




Teams are given an additional timeout in OT. Thus O'Hanlon still had one left. He did not use that timeout at any point in the OT.




 
Bison89 
Postdoc
Posts: 4532
Bison89
Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 11-14-07
01-10-18 11:39 AM - Post#242847    
    In response to Old Bison

Old Bison, no more players' initials please. It takes 2 seconds to write a first or last name.
'RAY FOR THE ORANGE AND THE BLUE!


 
Bison137 
Professor
Posts: 13381
Bison137
Reg: 01-23-06
01-10-18 01:17 PM - Post#242855    
    In response to Bison137

  • Bison137 Said:
  • Old Bison Said:
137 - the additional TO in OT is irrelevant - if I’m not mistaken OHanlon used up his last TO with circa 1:10 left in regulation




Teams are given an additional timeout in OT. Thus O'Hanlon still had one left. He did not use that timeout at any point in the OT.





You are correct that it's irrelevant to the regulation finish however. I am mixing up the OT finish with the regulation finish.




 
Paulie777 
PhD Student
Posts: 1500
Paulie777
Reg: 11-11-07
At Lafayette
01-10-18 01:22 PM - Post#242857    
    In response to Bison89

  • Bison89 Said:
Old Bison, no more players' initials please. It takes 2 seconds to write a first or last name.



The real MO was to drop the shot straight through, but AT the time he did what he could do and it swirled around the rim and went in. The BM gave him a lot of room and all was well.

Edited by Paulie777 on 01-10-18 01:23 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
The Psycho of Sojka 
Freshman
Posts: 13

Reg: 11-15-15
At Lafayette
01-10-18 01:57 PM - Post#242863    
    In response to Paulie777

I think at the end of the day it was just a very odd sloppy game and just be happy we get the W in the end. Now, since it is done and over with we use it to get better for match ups down the road whether that is against Lehigh tomorrow or Army the last game of the season.

Edited by The Psycho of Sojka on 01-10-18 01:57 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Bison89 
Postdoc
Posts: 4532
Bison89
Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 11-14-07
Re: At Lafayette
01-10-18 02:07 PM - Post#242864    
    In response to Paulie777

  • Paulie777 Said:
  • Bison89 Said:
Old Bison, no more players' initials please. It takes 2 seconds to write a first or last name.



The real MO was to drop the shot straight through, but AT the time he did what he could do and it swirled around the rim and went in. The BM gave him a lot of room and all was well.



Thanks, Paulie. It might be time for a BM right now . . .
'RAY FOR THE ORANGE AND THE BLUE!


 
Old Bison 
Junior
Posts: 215

Age: 60
Reg: 07-09-17
01-10-18 04:22 PM - Post#242905    
    In response to Bison89

137 - CORRECT! If the other team has no time outs and you're playing from 12.8 tics down and your up three it's malpractice to stop the clock for them. My response gave you leeway because you qualified your post with "from 1-4 seconds" and that is an important distinction in this application because there was a follow-up chance and 2 opportunities to foul. However, if you don't foul YOU CANT LOSE...holocaust result is OT. I'm seeing your distinctions but you were missing mine because we were still in regulation.

 
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