Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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Re: At Lafayette 01-09-18 10:04 PM - Post#242826
In response to Old Bison
137 - I realize you have qualified your post by saying 1-4 seconds. The distinction I see is that LU was out of TO"s. I don't think it was appealing for ND to stop the clock for them under any circumstance. There are two dangers; one, he sees the wrap up coming, shoots at the same time and the ref gives them the homer call that he drew the foul in the act. Two, he converts the two FT's and you can't inbound in 5 ticks and the holocaust outcome changes from OT to a potential loss. Imagine the Tuesday morning QBing on that! The really uncanny thing was it was a replay of the HC action when we were forced into OT at Sojka in the PL. Tough call either way...damned if you do
First, to set the stage: Lafayette still had one timeout left. Each team gets one timeout added for the OT. Bucknell at that point had three timeouts left.
Your first scenario is why I said there were two specific opportunities to foul when they couldn't take a shot, i.e. first when LC was grabbing the rebound facing away from the basket; and secondly, when Petrie was in the middle of a dribble with the ball not in his hand. However if you foul when they are inside the arc - as was the case just after the rebound - it is fine as long as they don't have a makeable shot.
As for the second scenario, two comments: First, Bucknell has been very good inbounding the ball against the press this year; Second, BU had timeouts left, so they would be able to draw up an inbound play; and third, if they got in trouble on the inbound, they could take another timeout. (And even another one.) Or they would just have to lob a high pass past midcourt. The odds of LC intercepting a pass 50 feet from the basket and immediately releasing a successfull shot is remote.
I'll just repeat that virtually every NBA team fouls in that situation once the clock is down to five or fewer seconds. Stan Van Gundy says the magic number is six seconds. Phil Jackson says it is five seconds. But for virtually every coach, it is no less than four seconds.
Two other factors are (a) the foul must be committed when the other team has no chance to launch a three as the foul occurs; and (b) your team must have competent rebounders in the two interior spots on the free throws. Bucknell has two of the league's top three rebounders.
Btw, I'm told that BU wanted to foul Champion intentionally when he corralled the airball, but no-one was able to get to him.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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Re: At Lafayette 01-09-18 10:09 PM - Post#242827
In response to Old Bison
I don't know how you watch replays so I can't see the final play in regulation. If anything appeared egregious in my estimation it was why BM didn't pickup Petrie earlier on the first attempt. They inbounded at 12 ticks and the kid dribbled up and took a three from two feet behind the line. Am I wrong in that from someone who has access to the replay? Can anyone post a link to that segment of the archive? Love to see again
The shot was from about 3.5 feet behind the arc, but your point is well taken. Bruce played normal M2M defense, staying back a bit to make sure Petrie didn't try to blow by him. But at that point, with just under 8 seconds left, defending the three should be, by far, the major consideration.
Btw, Stephen Brown didn't box out Jaworski after the miss, which led to his rebound that set up the basket.
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Old Bison
Masters Student
Posts: 619
Age: 65
Reg: 07-09-17
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01-09-18 11:13 PM - Post#242828
In response to Bison137
137 - the additional TO in OT is irrelevant - if I’m not mistaken OHanlon used up his last TO with circa 1:10 left in regulation (I haven’t checked BRW’s link yet, nor checked the ESPN game flow because I was watching a movie but will do so tomorrow. I understand fully your points but I think the guy in the corner got the ball back to Petrie by the time any bison got close enough to foul him. I’m not sure I’m correct about that either...considering all the high rebounds that LU kept getting for second shots and the flashbacks to HC I was in shock. If I were in shorts and a strap shirt I probably would have wrapped someone up. If you stop the clock and foul a tragic ending can in fact result in a loss. If you play it straight the tragic ending is OT. Good pull out in OT despite a bad offensive showing. Bison bent but didn’t break. I do want to look at the D on the first shot though as opposed to the second.
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Old Bison
Masters Student
Posts: 619
Age: 65
Reg: 07-09-17
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01-09-18 11:19 PM - Post#242829
In response to Old Bison
I agree with your postscript. Petrie blowing by him wasn’t the primary defensive priority if everyone was instructed to stay home in the huddle. If Petrie drives the length of the court and scores a two I don’t think the timekeeper can just arbitrarily stop the clock. Bison can walk around for a couple of seconds before anyone goes near picking it up to inbound...NO?
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Old Bison
Masters Student
Posts: 619
Age: 65
Reg: 07-09-17
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01-10-18 08:35 AM - Post#242831
In response to Old Bison
BRW - TX for the link BTW (you know btw don’t you?)
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BisonRoadWarrior
Professor
Posts: 5203
Loc: Where the Bison Roam
Reg: 08-16-06
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01-10-18 10:00 AM - Post#242835
In response to Old Bison
(you know btw don’t you?)
Was he a Bison guard in the late 60s?
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res
Masters Student
Posts: 839
Reg: 03-21-06
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01-10-18 10:23 AM - Post#242837
In response to BisonRoadWarrior
I get the "btw", but what the hell does Texas have to do with anything?
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Old Bison
Masters Student
Posts: 619
Age: 65
Reg: 07-09-17
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01-10-18 10:36 AM - Post#242840
In response to res
Look at you BRW...not only is your mental acuity improving, you're learning the art of subtle sarcasm. I think from reading over the years w/o posting however that you had a certain latent talent in that area. Texas again, I watched the last play three times and had the following takeaways.
1. Zach's walk was very subtle, he backed out and established his right foot as the pivot and then released it from the ground on his fade-away.
2. SB wasn't in position to foul in the corner but Zach was (except he had 4 fouls and probably didn't want to get DQ'd)
3. Bruce played really good defense on the last shot attempt except leaving his feet cut off Zach and the kid made a really good play by recognizing he still had time and good spin out of the double.
4. We're lucky the kid just didn't drill the 1st attempt from the key...BM gave him lots of room
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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01-10-18 11:26 AM - Post#242845
In response to Old Bison
137 - the additional TO in OT is irrelevant - if I’m not mistaken OHanlon used up his last TO with circa 1:10 left in regulation
Teams are given an additional timeout in OT. Thus O'Hanlon still had one left. He did not use that timeout at any point in the OT.
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Bison89
Professor
Posts: 5370
Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 11-14-07
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01-10-18 11:39 AM - Post#242847
In response to Old Bison
Old Bison, no more players' initials please. It takes 2 seconds to write a first or last name.
New season, new team, new dream . . . |
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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01-10-18 01:17 PM - Post#242855
In response to Bison137
137 - the additional TO in OT is irrelevant - if I’m not mistaken OHanlon used up his last TO with circa 1:10 left in regulation
Teams are given an additional timeout in OT. Thus O'Hanlon still had one left. He did not use that timeout at any point in the OT.
You are correct that it's irrelevant to the regulation finish however. I am mixing up the OT finish with the regulation finish.
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Paulie777
PhD Student
Posts: 1767
Reg: 11-11-07
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At Lafayette 01-10-18 01:22 PM - Post#242857
In response to Bison89
Old Bison, no more players' initials please. It takes 2 seconds to write a first or last name.
The real MO was to drop the shot straight through, but AT the time he did what he could do and it swirled around the rim and went in. The BM gave him a lot of room and all was well.
Edited by Paulie777 on 01-10-18 01:23 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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The Psycho of Sojka
Sophomore
Posts: 107
Reg: 11-15-15
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At Lafayette 01-10-18 01:57 PM - Post#242863
In response to Paulie777
I think at the end of the day it was just a very odd sloppy game and just be happy we get the W in the end. Now, since it is done and over with we use it to get better for match ups down the road whether that is against Lehigh tomorrow or Army the last game of the season.
Edited by The Psycho of Sojka on 01-10-18 01:57 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Bison89
Professor
Posts: 5370
Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 11-14-07
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Re: At Lafayette 01-10-18 02:07 PM - Post#242864
In response to Paulie777
Old Bison, no more players' initials please. It takes 2 seconds to write a first or last name.
The real MO was to drop the shot straight through, but AT the time he did what he could do and it swirled around the rim and went in. The BM gave him a lot of room and all was well.
Thanks, Paulie. It might be time for a BM right now . . .
New season, new team, new dream . . . |
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Old Bison
Masters Student
Posts: 619
Age: 65
Reg: 07-09-17
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01-10-18 04:22 PM - Post#242905
In response to Bison89
137 - CORRECT! If the other team has no time outs and you're playing from 12.8 tics down and your up three it's malpractice to stop the clock for them. My response gave you leeway because you qualified your post with "from 1-4 seconds" and that is an important distinction in this application because there was a follow-up chance and 2 opportunities to foul. However, if you don't foul YOU CANT LOSE...holocaust result is OT. I'm seeing your distinctions but you were missing mine because we were still in regulation.
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