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Username Post: Max’s stats        (Topic#21002)
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 3751

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Max’s stats
01-19-18 12:48 PM - Post#244008    
    In response to PennFan10

  • PennFan10 Said:
. What I don't enjoy is the sledgehammer of arrogance that sometimes comes with the data.






When you say this, what I hear is "I don't enjoy data that doesn't conform to my understanding of basketball". This is subjective but generally speaking, I think a good piece of analysis or a good stat tells you about 80% of what you already know and challenges you/makes you rethink/tells you what you thought you knew was wrong about 20% of the time. If it tells you what you knew 100% of the time it's not really furthering the conversation and if it tells you something that makes you have to re-think 75% of what you know, there's a decent chance it's just a data mining, boil-the-ocean to find out AJ shoots better on 3s when it's rainy in Auckland.

Anyway, maybe you don't mean it the way I hear it, but the only one who seems to walk back his opinions is me. The data can absolutely be wrong. The data didn't support giving Max more minutes, it was wrong in so far as I expected him to get less effective, not more. And I admitted that even if I don't think his performance is good enough.

Finally, I just can't abide "coach says/thinks it so it must be true".

 
yoyo 
Junior
Posts: 206

Reg: 03-25-09
01-19-18 03:15 PM - Post#244031    
    In response to Jeff2sf

i miss Howard Gensler. What ever happened to him?

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4583

Reg: 11-22-04
01-19-18 03:28 PM - Post#244032    
    In response to Jeff2sf

I think whether he is even outplaying Max is complicated, as well. If you take away the division 3 game and the Delaware state game, he’s a 50% free throw shooter, sub 30% from 3. His rebound rate was better in the very small sample size of the first 3 Ivy games, but again overall his rebounding numbers don’t look like much without the games against non division one talent.

The other thing to keep in mind is that he basically played every minute he could against Princeton and Cornell — he fouled out of one and got 4 in the other. So not the rotation limiting his minutes there.



 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3204

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
Max’s stats
01-19-18 04:12 PM - Post#244039    
    In response to SomeGuy

I think Jarrod Simmons is going to be a very good, maybe even great, player for Penn. Right now, however, he's just a very promising freshman who's PT is limited by and large only by his own propensity to make freshman mistakes. He'll come along. But saying that he should be starting ahead of a very solid, experienced junior who's obviously playing well and making a big contribution to the team's success just does't make any sense.

The good news, BTW, is that he's been getting more and playing time as the season has gone on, and at key points in games. He's already played 105 minutes so far this year. He'll probably play at least another 100, getting him halfway to Howard Gensler's 400 minute benchmark.

(Incidentally, that's twice now that Gensler's name has come up today.)

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 3751

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Max’s stats
01-19-18 04:36 PM - Post#244043    
    In response to Silver Maple

  • Silver Maple Said:
who's obviously playing well and making a big contribution to the team's success



Yeah so I hear you with the frosh mistakes, but the above is not obvious nor true.


 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3204

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
01-19-18 04:56 PM - Post#244047    
    In response to Jeff2sf

[This is me ignoring.]

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 3751

Reg: 11-22-04
01-19-18 05:02 PM - Post#244048    
    In response to Silver Maple

tell me who sam is

 
10Q 
Professor
Posts: 14056

Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
01-19-18 05:20 PM - Post#244050    
    In response to Jeff2sf

Right next to cliff clavin.

 
omegahouse 
Freshman
Posts: 67
omegahouse
Reg: 12-06-04
01-19-18 05:23 PM - Post#244051    
    In response to Jeff2sf


My seats are in Section 104, row 2, seats five and six. Stop by and say "hi"!!

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 3751

Reg: 11-22-04
01-19-18 05:27 PM - Post#244052    
    In response to omegahouse

Oh jeez, i stayed out of that thread. the enemy of the enemy is my friend but on the other hand you called me boorish.

Whatever, the idea that I was deliberately forgetting who you were seems silly, but that's colin (an intellectually dishonest person) for you.

 
omegahouse 
Freshman
Posts: 67
omegahouse
Reg: 12-06-04
01-19-18 05:30 PM - Post#244054    
    In response to omegahouse

Well, ok, whatever.............
I still hope you stop by to say hello!!

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 18295

Reg: 11-21-04
01-19-18 05:37 PM - Post#244055    
    In response to omegahouse

He's a very nice guy. And the fact that you deem me to be an enemy, when we haven't met since I got you those NCAA tickets years ago is remarkable.

 
T.P.F.K.A.D.W. 
Masters Student
Posts: 817

Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
01-19-18 05:43 PM - Post#244056    
    In response to Jeff2sf

  • Jeff2sf Said:
...but that's colin (an intellectually dishonest person) for you.


Serious question: Has "Colin" become a euphemism for an intellectually dishonest person? I'm genuinely confused by your use of this term.



 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 3751

Reg: 11-22-04
01-19-18 05:59 PM - Post#244057    
    In response to palestra38

  • palestra38 Said:
He's a very nice guy. And the fact that you deem me to be an enemy, when we haven't met since I got you those NCAA tickets years ago is remarkable.



I was referring to Chip in this case. I did not read very closely the thread where Sam and Chip went at it. I probably did read Sam's name but again, I was only skimming. You then turned it into a I'm deliberately trying to avoid recalling Sam.

Speaking of not recalling, my memory is fuzzy on tickets. The only thing I remember is one time greeting you and Lyle and you generously offering to let me sit next to you because you had some open seats. I declined because I had a big group. If there's some other thing, please feel free to correct.

 
Cvonvorys 
Postdoc
Posts: 2004

Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
Reg: 10-11-06
01-19-18 06:21 PM - Post#244061    
    In response to T.P.F.K.A.D.W.

  • T.P.F.K.A.D.W. Said:
  • Jeff2sf Said:
...but that's colin (an intellectually dishonest person) for you.


Serious question: Has "Colin" become a euphemism for an intellectually dishonest person? I'm genuinely confused by your use of this term.





Hi all... I'm Colin Vonvorys. Some of you may know of my dad, who taught Poly Sci at Penn for 25 years and brought my older brother and me to the Palestra for Big 5 Double Headers starting when I was 6-7 years old. I am a proud graduate of Penn and a huge Penn basketball fan.

That being said, I used to post on the Off Topic Board, and I am a proud Trump Loving Conservative, which bothers the leftists who also post on the OTB. I am not intellectually dishonest, but the snowflakes cannot seem to handle my conservative principles, and so they resort to ad hominem attacks.

I stopped posting on the OTB because I did not care for the personal attacks, like I am a racist or that I am intellectually dishonest. I would ask those who post on the "Penn Basketball" site to please refrain from the pejoratives toward me. None of you know me personally (well, one of you does who've I gotten to know at Conte's Pizza in Princeton) so I would appreciate a modicum of civility from fellow Penn grads.

Is that asking too much?

 
SteveChop 
Masters Student
Posts: 686

Reg: 07-28-07
01-19-18 06:23 PM - Post#244062    
    In response to yoyo

I'm happy to report that Howard is alive and well and has attended almost every game this season. It is discussions like these that have caused him (and many others) to flee from this Board.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 5236

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
01-19-18 06:56 PM - Post#244065    
    In response to SteveChop

Can we get back to someone coming up with a reason why Penn’s defensive rebounding stats are so unusual by shot type? Inclined to believe it’s some part noise, some part real (not sure how to allocate how much is each), but I’d like to hear thoughts. One of the crazier rebounding splits I’ve seen.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3204

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
01-19-18 07:34 PM - Post#244068    
    In response to SteveChop

  • SteveChop Said:
I'm happy to report that Howard is alive and well and has attended almost every game this season. It is discussions like these that have caused him (and many others) to flee from this Board.



I wouldn't say it's the discussions per se, it's the tone of those discussions. A particularly toxic mix of unwarranted condescension and outright nastiness.

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 3751

Reg: 11-22-04
01-19-18 07:37 PM - Post#244069    
    In response to Silver Maple

"Yeah probably has nothing to do with the last 10 years of craptacular play and that no one under 25 joins message boards anymore"

He said condescendingly.

We are better off with Howard gone. Unless I missed the last 5 championships we won with the fantastic recruiting classes he promised.

 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1731

Reg: 02-15-15
Re: Max’s stats
01-19-18 07:46 PM - Post#244070    
    In response to Jeff2sf

  • Jeff2sf Said:
  • PennFan10 Said:
. What I don't enjoy is the sledgehammer of arrogance that sometimes comes with the data.





When you say this, what I hear is "I don't enjoy data that doesn't conform to my understanding of basketball". This is subjective but generally speaking, I think a good piece of analysis or a good stat tells you about 80% of what you already know and challenges you/makes you rethink/tells you what you thought you knew was wrong about 20% of the time. If it tells you what you knew 100% of the time it's not really furthering the conversation and if it tells you something that makes you have to re-think 75% of what you know, there's a decent chance it's just a data mining, boil-the-ocean to find out AJ shoots better on 3s when it's rainy in Auckland.

Anyway, maybe you don't mean it the way I hear it, but the only one who seems to walk back his opinions is me. The data can absolutely be wrong. The data didn't support giving Max more minutes, it was wrong in so far as I expected him to get less effective, not more. And I admitted that even if I don't think his performance is good enough.

Finally, I just can't abide "coach says/thinks it so it must be true".



I agree with this and like your description quite a bit (in bold). That's what I like about the data. The sledgehammer part is more about delivery and opinions taken from what the data mean. E.G. a poster who shall remain unnamed says "XXXXXX [insert data here]XXXX, so I'd take last years defense over this year's". The data part I like, the subjective opinion that seems intentional to inflame the Penn board I don't like. But that's just me, others probably didn't care one way or another.

I prefer just the data and the occasional interpretation of said data.

For example, you said DRat is mostly useless. Why? The numbers vary widely across the league and I offered at least one visual example of why I thought Max (and Penn more broadly) was better on defense...namely his work to guard Myles Stephens against Princeton which he could not do a year ago. (I believe Max lost 15 lbs in the off season to improve agility).

 
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