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Username Post: State of the team?        (Topic#21122)
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 530

Age: 46
Reg: 05-19-16
State of the team?
02-19-18 11:17 AM - Post#248570    
    In response to GIQUAKER

Despite the lack of comparable funding the Ivy league is the epitome of Mid-Major. It's usually ranked in the middle of all leagues in basketball. A lot of the better players on each team could have gone to better athletic schools (Xavier) but chose Ivy for academics. I say that to say that there is no lack of competitiveness among our players and the other conferences. They just have an equal level of focus on academic excellence. I honestly believe that the conference could raise the level of commitment to the sport and not lose anything on the quality of academically minded student it recruits. Playing a D1 sport is demanding. The amount of time and energy these kids put in in high school while maintaining the level of academic excellence is quite astounding. I think (in terms of basketball) that the adults grossly underestimate what these kids go through to play at this level.

The result of this is kids who work twice as hard to graduate early (from an Ivy), while playing, so they can play at a high major school. There is no reason the people who lead the league can't raise the level to attract and keep these kids all four years.
"...no excuses - only results!”


Edited by GoBigGreenBasketball on 02-19-18 11:46 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
GIQUAKER 
Junior
Posts: 208

Reg: 02-27-06
02-19-18 11:29 AM - Post#248572    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

I agree with all of your points. I don't think anyone disagrees with the point that many of the Ivy players are on par with other good DI programs' athletes. I think that a major difference with scholarship schools can be the depth of the talent. If you look at some teams this year in the Ivy's, injuries have hurt them. I think that if the Ivy's want to compete, scholarships are needed. I don't ever expect that to happen. I will say however that I think that lack of support puts a lot of pressure on the coaches and players currently in the Ivy's.

 
Go Green 
Masters Student
Posts: 436

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
02-19-18 09:17 PM - Post#248670    
    In response to GIQUAKER


Just two points here-

1) I think everyone agrees that if Bourdreaux was still on the team, Dartmouth makes the Ivy tournament.

2) This year's performance is hardly great... but could have been worse.

I've long said that unless you have a historically bad run (think Mangurian at Columbia football), fairness dictates that a coach be give four years to prove his mettle. While nobody is claiming that Dartmouth's performance this season has been "good," it isn't historically bad either.

 
GIQUAKER 
Junior
Posts: 208

Reg: 02-27-06
02-19-18 10:42 PM - Post#248672    
    In response to Go Green

I think your 2 points are spot on. To your first point, I think Evan is missed more this year because the team has more talent and he could have stayed in his role. I felt that he tried to do too much last year. Shooting 3's was not his thing. Scoring inside and getting to FT line was. I am hoping for 2 more wins this year. We'll see...

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4632

Reg: 11-22-04
02-20-18 12:31 AM - Post#248678    
    In response to Go Green

Obviously we’ll never know for sure, but I don’t agree with (1), or at least I think it is debatable.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 530

Age: 46
Reg: 05-19-16
02-20-18 03:09 AM - Post#248681    
    In response to Go Green

I definitely don't agree with point 1.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3275

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
02-20-18 11:13 AM - Post#248693    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

I think if Boudreaux were still there, Dartmouth would have a good shot at making the tournament, but that's as far as I'm prepared to go.

 
Go Green 
Masters Student
Posts: 436

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
02-20-18 11:34 AM - Post#248699    
    In response to Silver Maple


True enough, we will never know.

But come on guys...

Dartmouth lost to Harvard in OT
Dartmouth lost to Cornell by 1
Dartmouth lost to Brown by 2
Dartmouth lost to Columbia by 3
Dartmouth lost to Penn by 3

You really don't think that Boudreaux moves the needle in those games?


 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4632

Reg: 11-22-04
02-20-18 12:58 PM - Post#248703    
    In response to Go Green

He moves the needle in a sense, but he moves it so much that you can’t just say that Dartmouth would have gotten one more basket to win the game — the game would play out completely differently with him there.

Boudreaux’s usage rate was over 30% last year. Without him, Dartmouth plays like a team, with everybody hovering within a similar usage range.

 
GIQUAKER 
Junior
Posts: 208

Reg: 02-27-06
02-20-18 07:44 PM - Post#248725    
    In response to Go Green

I was at 2 of those games and yes we would have won the Harvard game for sure.

 
GIQUAKER 
Junior
Posts: 208

Reg: 02-27-06
State of the team?
02-20-18 07:45 PM - Post#248726    
    In response to GIQUAKER

I think Evan was a great go to guy. Last year he was by himself and teams double teamed him and took him out. This year there are more options and I think his presence would have made a difference. The defense need to guard Knight, Barry etc

Edited by GIQUAKER on 02-20-18 07:48 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 5243

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-20-18 08:01 PM - Post#248728    
    In response to GIQUAKER

A couple reasons I disagree with this general premise:

1) Dartmouth is better offensively this year than it was in either season with Boudreaux. It also improved defensively over last year. Two years ago, Dartmouth was better defensively, but that was basically all driven by turnover rate and Malik Gill being a spark plug for steals.

2) The game script for the Harvard game was -6.8. While all “what would have happened if” games are tenuous to start, it’s even more tenuous to start by locking in a highly improbable comeback (according to win odds models, Harvard was more highly probable to win up 41-24 than Dartmouth was at any point in the game) and building from there. It’s entirely possible that Boudreaux’s garbage defense would have allowed Harvard to salt the game away offensively. Or that he would have knocked out many of the minutes of a guy like Chris Knight, who was instrumental to the comeback.

 
GIQUAKER 
Junior
Posts: 208

Reg: 02-27-06
02-20-18 08:24 PM - Post#248729    
    In response to mrjames

I was there and I think we would have won if we had another go to guy like Evan who was effective at getting to the free throw.

I am curious about the model that you're referring to. I know this is a potentially complicated question but how do you know that the model is accurate? How do you validate it? I see references to models at this site and I wonder how these models are developed and validated?

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4632

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: State of the team?
02-20-18 09:03 PM - Post#248730    
    In response to GIQUAKER

Note that Barry isn’t much different this year from last. I guess the additional minutes make him an option more of the time, but he’s really a very similar high ORAT, low usage rate player.

As for Knight, he has the same problem as Boudreaux — he eats up too many possessions at too low an efficiency rate. He’s Dartmouth’s least efficient player among the starters, yet he uses the most possessions (which is why he puts up good counting numbers).

So I am not sure that Dartmouth has really suffered at all without Boudreaux in the sense that, with Boudreaux playing as he did last year, Dartmouth might not have been as close in those games as they ended up, because he would have taken shots away from guys who were more likely to make them. The reason this is all hypothetical, of course, is that Boudreaux was obviously the most talented player on the team, so it is quite possible he would have learned to be more efficient and help his teammates more. The silver lining is that they couldn’t use him as a crutch anymore — the team was forced to be more balanced without him.


 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 95

Age: 48
Reg: 12-14-16
02-20-18 10:03 PM - Post#248736    
    In response to mrjames

Pretty funny "analysis" coming from a guy who works a calculator but never played the game. You're welcome to your opinion. Here's mine. Boudreaux is a genius and made a perfect decision leaving Dartmouth. He gets his Ivy degree and 2 years of eligibility playing basketball at a high level. SO, assuming anything you say is "correct" James, my sources in the Athletic Department confirmed that he had roughly 20+ high major teams contact the athletic department looking for his release paperwork. You know, scrubby teams like Kansas, and oh yeah, Chris Mack came after him from Xavier. Heard nearly every Big Ten school called...Have you heard of Synergy? The game film database that all coaches use? Every coach surely watched all of his college game film. You think they would offer him without thoroughly investigating his 2 year Dartmouth performance? No way. You think they didn't know his efficiency stats, his ORAT, etc?? Of course they did. You think they cared? Nope. If they listened to you, they wouldn't have called. But they did. And I assure you, they all called coaches he played for and coaches he played against. You don't think they know he was double and triple teamed every night, and he still averaged a double/double in league play? You think they know that the coaches, in both years, told him not to foul because they couldn't afford to play without him? I'm sure they do. Did you happen to notice that the teams around him were pretty awful in both years? I'm sure the coaches recruiting him did. So at the end of the day, we need Boudreaux in the worst way. We should never have let him get away (thanks McLAUGHlin and Sheehy). Our teams, especially future recruiting will suffer for years. They will all ask "why did Boudreaux leave?" And McLAUGHlin better have a good answer. Boudreaux held down the middle and was the backbone of the team for the two years we had him, and most teams could not stop him even with double and triple teams. (he had 950 points and 511 rebounds in 2 years (avg 17.5ppg and 9.5 r/g for those 2 years) and everyone made a big deal when Miles Wright got 1000 in four years!) And you know what, I (and surely Boudreaux) will take the fact that the 4th ranked team in the country (along with the other 20+ that apparently recruited him) wanted him badly enough to offer him a scholarship. I think Chris Mack and his staff know a ton more about basketball than some geeky stat based keyboard warrior who calls himself "Mr. James". If Xavier and all those other schools that recruited him think they'll be better with Boudreaux on their team than not, then Dartmouth would clearly be better off with him than without him. Your stats do not measure heart, work ethic, basketball IQ, intensity, toughness, desire, and all the intangibles that people who understand the game look for. Your stat based opinion is therefore worthless to me and falls to the bottom of the pile. Please go back and haunt the Harvard board and tell them how great they are ad nauseum. And when Boudreaux is hopefully playing in the NCAA tournament (I,at least, wish him well), you will still be typing up Ivy League stats and chirping to the ten old timers that make up the core of this board. Stats and a twitter account don't make you the least bit knowledgeable about the game of basketball. It just gives you something to hide behind.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 530

Age: 46
Reg: 05-19-16
02-20-18 10:47 PM - Post#248740    
    In response to SomeGuy

SomeGuy You hit it right on the mark. You wouldn’t see emery, knight, or Jackson play much. This the offense went through EB. They play more team ball this year.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 95

Age: 48
Reg: 12-14-16
02-20-18 11:36 PM - Post#248746    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

And I agree. The game plan EVERY GAME over the last two years was to have the offense go through Boudreaux. They had variations at times based on match-ups, double teams, etc. But the offense was designed for EB. Without him everyone has to step up and fill the void. Generally speaking, the team has not filled the void. There have been moments. Someguy is 100% correct that playing time would have been unevenly distributed with Boudreaux in the lineup, and since he's gone, that is obviously a good thing that others get more experience/playing time. It's how we'll get better going forward. And coaching. But I've covered that in other posts...GBG.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4632

Reg: 11-22-04
02-20-18 11:49 PM - Post#248748    
    In response to hoops123

I think in a sense you are both right — Boudreaux is absolutely talented enough to play high major basketball. I don’t think anyone questions that. I certainly think that Dartmouth could be better with him than without him. But there are some things that the team is doing much better now without him. He could have fit into that, but there is some evidence he didn’t want to.

The question at Xavier will be similar to Penn’s Tony Hicks at Louisville. Can Boudreaux handle going somewhere where he isn’t the alpha dog? Some guys fit beautifully at the next level, like Shonn Miller at UCONN. But he was a pretty self-less player all along. Like Hicks, I think Boudreaux will need to be a much lower volume player at Xavier, or he may find playing time hard to come by. If I remember correctly, while they lose a couple of frontcourt guys, they also return three. He’ll need to move ahead of guys who are already pretty good players. Not sure what his intension is — he obviously aimed low and went for a situation where he could be a big fish for his first two years. He may just want to be a contributor at the highest level now.

 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1855

Reg: 02-15-15
02-21-18 01:25 AM - Post#248754    
    In response to hoops123

  • hoops123 Said:
Pretty funny "analysis" coming from a guy who works a calculator but never played the game. You're welcome to your opinion. Here's mine. Boudreaux is a genius and made a perfect decision leaving Dartmouth. He gets his Ivy degree and 2 years of eligibility playing basketball at a high level. SO, assuming anything you say is "correct" James, my sources in the Athletic Department confirmed that he had roughly 20+ high major teams contact the athletic department looking for his release paperwork. You know, scrubby teams like Kansas, and oh yeah, Chris Mack came after him from Xavier. Heard nearly every Big Ten school called...Have you heard of Synergy? The game film database that all coaches use? Every coach surely watched all of his college game film. You think they would offer him without thoroughly investigating his 2 year Dartmouth performance? No way. You think they didn't know his efficiency stats, his ORAT, etc?? Of course they did. You think they cared? Nope. If they listened to you, they wouldn't have called. But they did. And I assure you, they all called coaches he played for and coaches he played against. You don't think they know he was double and triple teamed every night, and he still averaged a double/double in league play? You think they know that the coaches, in both years, told him not to foul because they couldn't afford to play without him? I'm sure they do. Did you happen to notice that the teams around him were pretty awful in both years? I'm sure the coaches recruiting him did. So at the end of the day, we need Boudreaux in the worst way. We should never have let him get away (thanks McLAUGHlin and Sheehy). Our teams, especially future recruiting will suffer for years. They will all ask "why did Boudreaux leave?" And McLAUGHlin better have a good answer. Boudreaux held down the middle and was the backbone of the team for the two years we had him, and most teams could not stop him even with double and triple teams. (he had 950 points and 511 rebounds in 2 years (avg 17.5ppg and 9.5 r/g for those 2 years) and everyone made a big deal when Miles Wright got 1000 in four years!) And you know what, I (and surely Boudreaux) will take the fact that the 4th ranked team in the country (along with the other 20+ that apparently recruited him) wanted him badly enough to offer him a scholarship. I think Chris Mack and his staff know a ton more about basketball than some geeky stat based keyboard warrior who calls himself "Mr. James". If Xavier and all those other schools that recruited him think they'll be better with Boudreaux on their team than not, then Dartmouth would clearly be better off with him than without him. Your stats do not measure heart, work ethic, basketball IQ, intensity, toughness, desire, and all the intangibles that people who understand the game look for. Your stat based opinion is therefore worthless to me and falls to the bottom of the pile. Please go back and haunt the Harvard board and tell them how great they are ad nauseum. And when Boudreaux is hopefully playing in the NCAA tournament (I,at least, wish him well), you will still be typing up Ivy League stats and chirping to the ten old timers that make up the core of this board. Stats and a twitter account don't make you the least bit knowledgeable about the game of basketball. It just gives you something to hide behind.



This is ridiculous. Do you ever do anything but rip people? I am not a Mike James apologist but I am pretty sure all he did was put some facts behind some premises here. Those numbers aren't opinion, they are fact. And stating them in hindsight is also simply bringing up the historical record. It's fine to disagree with someones opinion or even focus on a different set of facts. You go too far here by attacking someone because they present facts you don't like.


 
hoops123 
Freshman
Posts: 95

Age: 48
Reg: 12-14-16
02-21-18 11:53 AM - Post#248788    
    In response to PennFan10

Mike James calling Boudreaux's defense "garbage" is not a fact it is his opinion. And I have a very different one. Tough apples if you don't like my opinion. I played/coached the game. Did you? If you did, then you'd understand. I've watched every minute of every game (not all live due to work schedule) for the last 3 1/2 years. Have you? You obviously didn't notice that I have never disputed Boudreaux's actual stats. They are what they are. But some players are way more complete than what their pure stats show. Oh and PS, some of his stats weren't nearly as bad as James thinks because of some underlying reasons. Like playing help defense and leaving his man because the opposing team beat our guards off the dribble EVERY time they drove the lane. Tough to guard your man when you have to guard somebody else's all the time. Not included in James' stats. Xavier and other big time schools falling all over themselves to get Boudreaux shows me we had a superstar in our midst and we let him go. And Dartmouth wouldn't be better if he stayed? C'mon. I'll take 5 Boudreaux's all day. We'd kill the league. James thinks otherwise. Good for him. James hides behind stats as if they are the end all determinant of who and what a player is. Wrong. James also pumps up Harvard by choosing stats that fit his narrative. Go to the Voy board and read what people write about James. I'm a pussycat compared to some of those posts. But point is, I'm not alone. Free speech? Message board? Opinions. You get the idea. Don't read my posts if you don't like them. Unfortunately for you, I do have opinions when Dartmouth is involved, and I'm still irritated as hell that our incompetent coaching staff/AD let a player like Boudreaux slip though their fingers. Probably take many years of losing before I get over that one.

 
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