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Username Post: State of the team?        (Topic#21122)
somedartmouthstudent2 
Freshman
Posts: 19

Age: 22
Reg: 02-21-18
State of the team?
02-22-18 02:59 PM - Post#248902    
    In response to SomeGuy

I am fairly confident he was 4 as a freshman and 8 as a sophomore. I found some receipts where I posted the PER but I can't get back to my source material right now. So I'm certainly at least half wrong on that one.


I think the issue here might be the fact that you equate our rebounding improvement to the fact he left. He had two consecutive league leading (or top 2) rebounding seasons on a team where he was the tallest guy. This year we have added 2 guys (and more minutes for emery) that are able to actually rebound.

I've been reading back through a lot of posts to make sure I've been consistent. Unfortunately that has also allowed me to notice some inconsistencies and consistencies across the board.

SomeGuy- I'm not exactly sure what you have against the player who left but it seems like you have been leading a crusade against him for the last two years. If it is purely in the name of metrics above all, so be it, but present it that way. I think its probably time to end this conversation since it seems to be becoming a little cyclical.

MrJames- I think PennFan called you out on it. But the below quote stands in stark contrast to everything you said about 1st team and POY the last two years.

  • mrjames Said:
In the past, it seems that three things have held true: 1) Ivy play matters more than non-conference; 2) offense is considered more than defense and 3) how your team does (and how you help make your team better) matters.



You as well don't seem to like the player who left as I have found a number of other posts where you refer to his defense as garbage or something similar (when it was in fact average, or slightly above average.)


I think this is a lesson that all parties (even me as a Dartmouth fan believe it or not) allow bias to shade how they approach presenting and defending metrics. I say we get back to rooting for our teams, and not talking about this player and call it a day. I have certainly spent more time writing these posts than my psychology paper.



Edited by somedartmouthstudent2 on 02-22-18 03:03 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
somedartmouthstudent2 
Freshman
Posts: 19

Age: 22
Reg: 02-21-18
02-22-18 03:01 PM - Post#248903    
    In response to somedartmouthstudent2

Also side note- who knew a state of the team post would create such a lengthy discussion.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4584

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: State of the team?
02-22-18 03:25 PM - Post#248910    
    In response to somedartmouthstudent2

Good post. Funny that at a couple of points as we’ve had this debate, I’ve wondered what you have against Johnson and Wright. Unfortunately, these types of discussions sometimes end up sounding a lot more negative about certain players (or coaches) than we intend.

I have nothing against the player at issue, and I certainly do not intend to lead any crusade against him. Sometimes, arguing that I would choose someone else for first team, or that I think Dartmouth has improved this year, unfortunately becomes a negative discussion of what a player doesn’t do rather than a positive discussion of what other players do.

I’ll say it one last time to try to emphasize the positives. I would have put this player on my 2nd team All-Ivy last year. I presume he would have been a first teamer if he stuck around (both the real thing and on my imaginary list). I am not surprised at the big time transfer interest, nor do I think (or hope) he will fail at the next level. I wish him the best.

 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1748

Reg: 02-15-15
02-22-18 03:54 PM - Post#248919    
    In response to SomeGuy

And I am not a pro "guy who left" by any means. I am simply pointing out an inconsistency.

 
somedartmouthstudent2 
Freshman
Posts: 19

Age: 22
Reg: 02-21-18
02-22-18 08:26 PM - Post#248952    
    In response to PennFan10

All fair. I certainly appreciate the dialogue and if anything, best of luck to the player and whoever you guys root for this year!

 
Go Green 
Senior
Posts: 399

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
02-22-18 09:40 PM - Post#248960    
    In response to somedartmouthstudent2


Anyone who cares, the he who shall not be named discussion is continuing on the Penn Board.

I'll let you guess the thread...

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 468

Age: 46
Reg: 05-19-16
02-22-18 11:30 PM - Post#248968    
    In response to somedartmouthstudent2

  • somedartmouthstudent2 Said:
I think we are going to have to disagree and call it that at that. The player we aren't supposed to be talking about, IMO was the best player in the league averaged out over his first two years. I think Matt Morgan would fail miserably on Dartmouths team, as I believe he has a better supporting cast and coaching staff. There are no teams quite as bad as Dartmouth so that argument doesnt exactly work.

I respect the opinion, but the guy who left dominated AJ and Chris Lewis when he played them . But like you said not provable. I just vehemently disagree.

Now for the seniors. I like them as people. They are high character guys. They are not basketball players. For four years they have been pretty awful, and I don't know what resurgence you are talking about, but you clearly haven't been watching the same games, or practices, that I have. Wright plays no defense, gambles on steals, and ghosts in and out of an offense that he should be the focal point of. Johnson is a turnover machine, hot headed, and doesnt have the greatest basketball IQ. I wish Cam Smith would get in more as he really competes in practices and I thought he would contribute quite a bit this year.





Why doesn't Cam play more, if he competes in practice? His energy is as close to Gill's as anyone I've seen since. shouldn't guys who compete hard in practice earn more mins?
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
somedartmouthstudent2 
Freshman
Posts: 19

Age: 22
Reg: 02-21-18
02-23-18 03:28 AM - Post#248974    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Probably need to go to Mclaughlin for that answer- I certainly couldn't tell you.

 
Stuart Suss 
Masters Student
Posts: 943

Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
02-23-18 11:30 AM - Post#249004    
    In response to somedartmouthstudent2

Evan Boudreaux ranked 4th last year and 5th in the league in 2016 in the individual efficiency statistics that I post at the end of each season.

These statistics do not disprove any attacks on his defense. They tend to show that he was a first team talent based on box score metrics which are predominantly reflective of offensive performance.


 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 468

Age: 46
Reg: 05-19-16
02-24-18 12:32 PM - Post#249189    
    In response to somedartmouthstudent2

Cam got a little run yesterday and played hard despite the score. 💪
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4584

Reg: 11-22-04
02-24-18 01:12 PM - Post#249198    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

Ok, I’ll jump in with another annoying outsider post just to address something besides Boudreaux. Statistically, at least, playing Cam Smith more would seem to make sense. There is a big statistical drop off for Dartmouth after the starting guards. Smith hasn’t played enough for there to be a definitive record that he is a better option, but he is an untried option at a spot where Dartmouth has not gotten production. Could be that the coaches just know more from practice, could be that Cam isn’t a system fit somehow, and it could be that the future is the sophs and they need the run.

 
EasyGreen1 
Freshman
Posts: 21

Age: 41
Reg: 12-08-16
02-24-18 02:50 PM - Post#249212    
    In response to SomeGuy

Cam Smith is actually not untried, he is an experience PG and just not utilized by McLaughlin. Cam went from starting 17 games and playing in all but one as a sophomore to basically falling off the radar under the new coach. Close observers of the program will tell you he has only gotten stronger and better. While lack of fit with McLaughlin's system may have made sense as a reason early on, it makes no sense now given the lack of production offensively (and the dreadful defense) at the PG position off the bench. Kudos to Cam for remaining strong through it all and being a dedicated student athlete, teammate, and senior captain!

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4584

Reg: 11-22-04
02-24-18 03:47 PM - Post#249217    
    In response to EasyGreen1

By untried, I just mean that he hasn’t played enough minutes for his stats to be surely indicative. That includes soph year, when he started a lot, but didn’t play enough total minutes for me to feel confident his numbers mean anything.

 
EasyGreen1 
Freshman
Posts: 21

Age: 41
Reg: 12-08-16
02-24-18 04:29 PM - Post#249222    
    In response to SomeGuy

Ok, but only if it is logical/reasonable to argue averaging 14 minutes per game over 27 games, with 3.9 ppg, and finishing top 10 Ivy in assist to TO ratio as a sophomore (not to mention defensive prowess) is statistically insignificant or valueless in assessing D1 level talent.

 
Chip Bayers 
Postdoc
Posts: 4683
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
State of the team?
02-24-18 07:15 PM - Post#249244    
    In response to EasyGreen1

He was a 15% usage guy who couldn’t shoot: eFG at 36%. Among limited role players, as KenPom bracketed him that year, that’s extremely limited. None of his defensive stats were really standout either, so hard to judge him there.


Edited by Chip Bayers on 02-24-18 07:18 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
somedartmouthstudent2 
Freshman
Posts: 19

Age: 22
Reg: 02-21-18
02-24-18 09:21 PM - Post#249320    
    In response to GIQUAKER

I came back looking for the we are better this year crowd...

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4584

Reg: 11-22-04
02-24-18 10:55 PM - Post#249409    
    In response to somedartmouthstudent2

Still ahead of last year in pomeroy. But got closer this weekend (not in a good way).

 
GIQUAKER 
Junior
Posts: 208

Reg: 02-27-06
02-25-18 09:47 AM - Post#249441    
    In response to somedartmouthstudent2

Can you be more specific? I think we'd all like to be winning. Losing 2 at Penn and Princeton away with a long trip is not a surprise unfortunately. I am hoping to see some better play this weekend and be supportive. What do you think we should be doing/saying?

 
Go Green 
Senior
Posts: 399

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
02-25-18 12:04 PM - Post#249466    
    In response to somedartmouthstudent2

  • somedartmouthstudent2 Said:
I came back looking for the we are better this year crowd...



It's a darn good thing we don't have Bordreaux anymore. We would have REALLY gotten embarrassed over the weekend if he was still on the team.



 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4584

Reg: 11-22-04
02-25-18 02:26 PM - Post#249489    
    In response to Go Green

Well, you did come 20 points closer to Princeton on the trip without him this year.

I guess the Penn game didn’t go quite as well comparatively.

 
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