Untitled Document
Brown Columbia Cornell Dartmouth Harvard Penn Princeton Yale



 Page 2 of 3 ALL<123
Username Post: Cornell        (Topic#21173)
Chip Bayers 
Professor
Posts: 6997
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
Cornell
02-17-18 02:52 AM - Post#248175    
    In response to TigerFan

Has Joe Scott somehow made it to the 7th & 1/2 Floor at LesterCorp and used the portal previously assigned to Malkovich to secretly inhabit Mitch Henderson’s persona, displacing the original?


Edited by Chip Bayers on 02-17-18 02:56 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
02-17-18 06:54 AM - Post#248177    
    In response to Chip Bayers

Just watched that thing. Brutal.

It's hard to cheat the basketball gods. When you don't pass the ball well as a team (which is on the guys without the ball as much as those with it), can't hit free throws, drive into hopeless shots, and try to do it by yourself under pressure, your offense is going to drop off when the defense turns up the heat. You're left hoping for heroic plays on the offensive glass or on circus shots.

The defense was actually pretty good for most of the game, getting compromised during Cornell's big run by the offense's turnovers and bad shots. Much got exposed a few times and I would have liked to see more of Aririguzoh, who definitely bothers opponents around the rim while being pretty agile when pulled outside, but Bell and Stephens did a great job on Morgan through regulation. (My general beef about not trying to pressure the ball and force turnovers continues; that's how Cornell got back into the game, but MH seems very committed to playing "sound" defense. To be fair, the Tigers were able to force a lot of shot-clock violations and rushed shots at the end of the clock during the game, but once the Cornell run started I would have tried to change the complexion by attacking.)

If the Tigers somehow ended up in the Ivy tournament and recovered those flashes of great play from earlier in the season enough to steal the bid, would anybody really feel good about it?

 
1LotteryPick1969 
Postdoc
Posts: 2261
1LotteryPick1969
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
02-17-18 07:49 AM - Post#248179    
    In response to SRP

  • SRP Said:

If the Tigers somehow ended up in the Ivy tournament and recovered those flashes of great play from earlier in the season enough to steal the bid, would anybody really feel good about it?



No.



 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32682

Reg: 11-21-04
02-17-18 08:34 AM - Post#248184    
    In response to 1LotteryPick1969

Having been in a similar situation, where a 6-8 Penn team was 5 seconds away from taking out undefeated Princeton, you will root like crazy and if Princeton wins, you will be thrilled.

But if you lose, you won't feel that bad.

 
1LotteryPick1969 
Postdoc
Posts: 2261
1LotteryPick1969
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
02-17-18 08:55 AM - Post#248187    
    In response to palestra38

I certainly understand what you are saying, and probably you are correct.

But this season has been torture. The team looks like lost dogs in tall weeds most of the time. They are all good guys, and talented, which makes it all the more painful.



 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32682

Reg: 11-21-04
02-17-18 09:07 AM - Post#248189    
    In response to 1LotteryPick1969

Yes, but I think you guys took it on trust that you could replace all those seniors from last year's team, especially glue guys like Weisz and Miller, not to mention Miller and not having the guys who got injured, Brase and Caruso coming back to step in. Your team has a giant hole in the middle and it was foreseeable that the smaller guys who had to step up would wear down, especially since the coaches in this league know all the other teams extremely well and if you have a weakness, they will pick at it like a scab until it breaks open. You would have been helped a lot if you allowed redshirts --Brase and Caruso are playing elsewhere and would be starters if they could have redshirted and played this year.

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1842

Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
02-17-18 09:13 AM - Post#248190    
    In response to 1LotteryPick1969

The answer for me is simple -- NO. I have no interest in watching or supporting the IL Tournament even if a miracle occurred and the Tigers made it this year. If the regular season winner, Penn or Harvard, wins the IL Tournament, I will root and support them at the Big Dance or NIT Tournament. Would not even watch the Tigers play in the NCAA Tournament if they got the NCAA bid by winning the IL Tournament as a 2nd thru 4th -- sad but true.

Simply not interested in supporting something that I do not believe in.



 
TigerFan 
PhD Student
Posts: 1871

Reg: 11-21-04
Cornell
02-17-18 09:38 AM - Post#248193    
    In response to bradley

The great realization this year is just how good Steven Cook, Spencer Weisz, and Pete Miller were. Each of them were fundamentally sound “coaches on the court” types with incredible will to win. You can’t just put five guys on the court that can score one-on-one against teams that don’t know your game and expect to win in league play where everyone knows your weaknesses.

The Tigers looked fantastic on the west coast this year. But playing out west, especially in a tournament setting in which nobody has time to prepare for you is a completely different animal.

MH has been a phenomenal recruiter but he’s got to take a fair amount of the the blame for this year’s collapse. Without the “coaches on the court” that can assess what’s going on, fire up the team, make the right adjustments, the head coach needs to step up. That just hasn’t happened this year.

Edited by TigerFan on 02-17-18 09:40 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1842

Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: Cornell
02-17-18 09:58 AM - Post#248194    
    In response to TigerFan

I agree with your comments regarding Weisz, Cook and Miller and it is a point that I raised from the beginning of the season. Some suggested that there would not be much of a drop off with the graduation of these three players but that was hard to believe. Watching Weisz and Cook taking the guys out of locker rooms up close had a very different feel than this year let alone how they played during the last 5 minutes of a game. Players like Weisz, Chambers, Mason and others see to get short changed with analytics versus their contribution on the floor.

What would have been the outcome last night and some of these other games with those guys on the floor. The answer is not very complicated and the record speaks for itself.

 
whitakk 
Masters Student
Posts: 523

Age: 32
Reg: 11-11-14
Re: Cornell
02-17-18 10:40 AM - Post#248196    
    In response to bradley

  • bradley Said:
Watching Weisz and Cook taking the guys out of locker rooms up close had a very different feel than this year let alone how they played during the last 5 minutes of a game. Players like Weisz, Chambers, Mason and others see to get short changed with analytics versus their contribution on the floor.



For the first two months last year weren't we all killing Princeton for how it couldn't close out games in the last five minutes?

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Cornell
02-17-18 12:15 PM - Post#248207    
    In response to whitakk

Last year’s Princeton team didn’t find its stride until it lost two seniors. Steven Cook was crazy productive last year, but Spencer Weisz was eh in Ivy play. The offense has been pretty close to as productive as last year, but they’ve gone from a Top 50 D to a near bottom 100 D, which will easily be Mitch’s worst defense as a head coach. That despite returning the best individual defender from last year’s team.

Defense is a team effort, though, and the team has vastly underperformed expectations given returning player minutes.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
02-17-18 03:54 PM - Post#248274    
    In response to mrjames

I will indulge in the pleasure of I Told You So for a moment as a balm. It was clear pre-season that the loss of Miller was going to leave a hole in the D against good big men, and to some extent against penetration. Those were problems at times last season when the team went small, and then they had Cook and Weisz available to defend the perimeter. I prescribed practicing and using a lot of aggressive zone D and trying to pressure the ball and the first pass more in man D. It's turned out a little bit worse than I thought it might given the presence of quality defenders like Bell and Stephens, but it isn't shocking,

Offensively, there was going to be plenty of shooting and above-average (for Princeton) ability to score on individual moves. But Weisz, contrary to Mike, played a key role last season by moving the basketball to the weak side of the defense with sharp passes. That replaced the old high-post passing somewhat, and enabled the team to get decent looks even against good team defense.

This year's offense gets shut down when the opponent turns it up, pressures the perimeter, and recovers well on drives. If a high percentage of threes go in, that papers it over, but against good D this team runs out of answers and starts putting up difficult shots, getting shots blocked, and committing turnovers. Spacing, off-ball movement, and passing are not up to historical standards, and the team doesn't trust them in tight spots, going for individual heroism too often. The Much-to-Stephens wraparound pass at the end of the Akron game was a rare exception. I thought this team could really be elite offensively by combining a slightly more-traditional passing game with their individual scoring ability and good overall shooting, IF the whole team could replace Weisz's role in moving the ball, but that didn't happen. So the offense is good but not great and falters against the kind of defense Cornell and Dartmouth played during their runs.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-17-18 04:32 PM - Post#248278    
    In response to SRP

I gave Pete due consideration before the season began, but he really didn't play enough minutes to be considered a key cog on the defensive end. As for matchups, he played the most minutes in Ivy play last year against Brown (not a big team), and just 8 total against Harvard (a big team). His block rate was 2.8%. None of this signaled to me being a key defensive presence. I'm not sure what's going on, but Princeton played like an elite defensive team for a third of this season, so it's clear their ceiling on that end is still high.

I know that Weisz played a big role offensively. That came up a ton when I was asking around to straw poll the All-Ivy race. But the offense isn't the problem here. The only real difference is that the freshmen/new folks eating up the open mins are making mistakes and pushing up (what is still an elite) TO rate and that the team is shaky from the free throw line relative to last year. I feel pretty good about the projection that the offense wouldn't suffer without Weisz and Cook.

But the defense has to be more consistent. That December/January stretch showed Princeton with equally strong defensive numbers as last year. It's just that the first part of the season and this recent stretch have been beyond awful. It's absolutely staggering to see the difference.



 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1842

Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: Cornell
02-17-18 05:48 PM - Post#248281    
    In response to whitakk

You are correct that the Tigers had trouble against good non-conference teams. In a number of games, the score was tied with 5 minutes to go or less and they did not want successfully close out the games. What did Weisz and Cook do about it with the helpful addition of Stephens, run off 19 straight wins and close out games as well as coming back from double digits against ND with less than 10 minutes to go.

Why? A lot of reasons but Weisz and Cook, besides their skills, had the will to win and lead the team not only with their statistical contribution but with their leadership skills. They did not accept the early season results. Their contribution was not just their individual performance contribution but what they did in setting the tone for the team -- Leadership. One would only have to ask their teammates.

The likelihood of Tigers losing with a 20 point lead last night at Cornell with only one of them -- slim to none.

 
whitakk 
Masters Student
Posts: 523

Age: 32
Reg: 11-11-14
02-17-18 06:06 PM - Post#248286    
    In response to bradley

A Weisz-Cook team blew a double-digit lead at Cornell in 2015. (Granted, they were sophomores, not seniors.)

But their graduation blew up the defense way more than I expected. Not only are their individual replacements bad, but they can't play the same scheme, and everybody is worse in the more straight-up defense.

 
TigerFan 
PhD Student
Posts: 1871

Reg: 11-21-04
Cornell
02-17-18 06:33 PM - Post#248291    
    In response to mrjames

Mike, sometimes you have to look past the macro-analytics. For the 10 minutes or so last night when the Tigers were outscored by 21 points, offense was a big problem. TheTigers didn’t know what to do when Cornell started playing defense so it was mostly players dribbling into pressure and getting stripped, throwing up circus shots, or getting caught in the air after leaving their feet and throwing passes into the defense. This has happened over and over again this year during crunch time. Last year’s team didn’t have that problem during the Ivy season because they knew how to get guys open and we’re better at passing off the drive and moving without the ball.

Edited by TigerFan on 02-17-18 06:34 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Cornell
02-17-18 07:23 PM - Post#248298    
    In response to TigerFan

I’d caution against dismissing season-long metrics in favor of 10 min stretches here and there. Even the best offenses in the nation have looked anemic for 10 minutes. If that 10 mins was typical of the team’s performance, there’d be no way for the team to have been able to generate such solid year-long marks.

If you want to look past year-long metrics, my suggestion would be not to look at incredibly small samples, but rather to look at how the team arrived at those metrics. Was it by numbers that are likely to regress in the longer term or those where skill shines through rather quickly.

The fact remains that Princeton is very nearly as good on offense as it was last year and the minor difference is basically entirely in the small FT% and TO Rate differentials.

 
1LotteryPick1969 
Postdoc
Posts: 2261
1LotteryPick1969
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Cornell
02-17-18 10:06 PM - Post#248401    
    In response to mrjames

I can buy your statistical analysis, dismissal of small increments of time, etc.

But all you say about defense is 1) Miller wasn't great and 2) they suddenly suck on defense.

But why? Is there any statistical metric? All you say is "it's a team thing".

Do the stats not explains the whys and wherefores?

 
Charlie Fog 
Masters Student
Posts: 586

Age: 55
Loc: Philly
Reg: 11-12-13
02-17-18 10:09 PM - Post#248404    
    In response to 1LotteryPick1969

Time for a regime change?

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
02-18-18 12:07 AM - Post#248428    
    In response to Charlie Fog

I disagree with Mike about the small-sample business. We can directly see the change in the kind of shots Princeton got during periods when the opponent picked up its defense. We can actually see the low-percentage shots and turnovers coming off of bad drives. We can also see some of the defensive problems come from committing turnovers, from having blocked shots bounce to opponents heading the other way, etc.

That said, the defense really has been pretty bad for a good fraction of the season, with opponents being able to penetrate and to move the ball with impunity on way too many possessions.

 
 Page 2 of 3 ALL<123
Icon Legend Permissions Topic Options
Report Post

Quote Post

Quick Reply

Print Topic

Email Topic

3726 Views




Copyright © 2004-2012 Basketball U. Terms of Use for our Site and Privacy Policy are applicable to you. All rights reserved.
Basketball U. and its subsidiaries are not affiliated in any way with any NCAA athletic conference or member institution.
FusionBB™ Version 2.1 | ©2003-2007 InteractivePHP, Inc.
Execution time: 0.646 seconds.   Total Queries: 21   Zlib Compression is on.
All times are (GMT -0500) Eastern. Current time is 01:36 PM
Top