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Username Post: Columbia        (Topic#21183)
Eric Von Zipper 
Freshman
Posts: 69

Age: 65
Reg: 11-11-17
02-17-18 02:28 PM - Post#248245    

Opens Light Blue -1 1/2 O/U 147 1/2

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 18449

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Columbia
02-17-18 08:16 PM - Post#248315    
    In response to Eric Von Zipper

17-4 CU

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 11269

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Columbia
02-17-18 08:18 PM - Post#248317    
    In response to palestra38

It's on SNY if you're in the NYC area.

 
Cvonvorys 
Postdoc
Posts: 2082

Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
Reg: 10-11-06
Re: Columbia
02-17-18 08:34 PM - Post#248323    
    In response to penn nation

If you're a Princeton fan, you'll want to watch something else...

 
Eric Von Zipper 
Freshman
Posts: 69

Age: 65
Reg: 11-11-17
Re: Columbia
02-17-18 09:08 PM - Post#248353    
    In response to Cvonvorys

There's a red-hot curling match on Comcast.

Mixed doubles.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 18449

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Columbia
02-17-18 09:40 PM - Post#248383    
    In response to penn nation

It was on NBCSN 2 here in Philly---I was watching like a natural disaster---just can't turn away. This is the most notable collapse of an Ivy team since Judson Wallace famously said: "“I might get in trouble fast, but our team will win our next 10 games in a row. I know that.”

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 11269

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Columbia
02-17-18 09:47 PM - Post#248390    
    In response to palestra38

I don't even think that Princeton team lost 5 straight Ivy games.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 18449

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Columbia
02-17-18 09:51 PM - Post#248395    
    In response to penn nation

Correct--they just lost 4 in a row.






c

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3512

Reg: 02-04-06
02-18-18 12:19 AM - Post#248429    
    In response to palestra38

Talk about a meltdown. The only good thing to say is that there was no giving up after the disastrous start. But that's a bit like lauding the courage of the American army in the Philippines after Pearl Harbor, Clark Field, and the fall of Manila. Sure, some of this was mental and physical fatigue after yesterday's triple-OT loss, but geez.

I hate making so many soft players look like they're good. It's even more frustrating when lousy rebounding leads to countless opposing baskets as the shot-clock expires.

There are some X-and-O things that could be considered, but this was fundamentally about opening up the gates on defense early and not being able to hit any shots, even good ones, then forcing bad shots into the teeth of the defense. (There were what looked like a number of missed fouls against Columbia on Princeton drives, but when you play that out of rhythm I think it's actually forgivable for the refs to have trouble spotting those.) Columbia having a white-hot outside shooting night just compounded the misery.

The team probably needs to just forget the standings, etc., and concentrate on fundamentals and having fun by playing good, hard basketball. They are still very talented and capable of making life miserable for any Ivy opponent, and there is an outside chance of making the conference folly. So let's hear the "squiiick" sound of the Magic Slate sheet being lifted up and all that was written on it being erased.

 
whitakk 
Junior
Posts: 214

Age: 27
Reg: 11-11-14
02-18-18 01:08 AM - Post#248434    
    In response to SRP

Mitch said there was a "spirited" players' discussion after the game.

Would have been competitive without the insane 1H three-point shooting (COL 8-12, PRIN 0-13). But I don't know if there's an answer on defense. The zone was promising in the second half but idk if that can hold up for 40 minutes.

KenPom has Princeton favored in both games next weekend, but hard to see how they beat Harvard right now...

http://www.nycbuckets.com/2018/02/columbia-prol ong...

 
gokinsmen 
Postdoc
Posts: 2602

Reg: 02-06-10
Columbia
02-18-18 03:23 AM - Post#248437    
    In response to whitakk

  • whitakk Said:
Mitch said there was a "spirited" players' discussion after the game.



If they didn't have one before this game...yikes.
If they did have one and THIS was the result...yikes.

This is just a complete and devastating mental collapse. Very disappointed in the team and coaching staff. Once again, I'm starting to regret letting Brian Earl go. Maybe he should have been given the job over Mitch all along.

Technically, they're still alive for that 4th seed, but who cares? There's no evidence they'll be able to win 2 more games this season, much less back-to-back. And if in some fantasy scenario, they pull off an Ivy miracle, so what? Face a #1 seed in the Big Dance?

Let's hope Jaelin Llewellyn can be our Siyani Chambers and provide some instant leadership when he arrives. This team just doesn't "want it" enough. It turns out that cliche really is true. Some teams just care more than others and that's what we're seeing here.

 
Eric Von Zipper 
Freshman
Posts: 69

Age: 65
Reg: 11-11-17
02-18-18 08:56 AM - Post#248447    
    In response to whitakk

The problem with KenPom is he doesn't leave a phone # to call.

 
sparman 
Masters Student
Posts: 875
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
Re: Columbia
02-18-18 11:30 AM - Post#248460    
    In response to gokinsmen

  • gokinsmen Said:
Let's hope Jaelin Llewellyn can be our Siyani Chambers and provide some instant leadership when he arrives.



Not to be Chicken Little, but at this point, let's just hope he arrives.


 
1LotteryPick1969 
PhD Student
Posts: 1477
1LotteryPick1969
Age: 67
Loc: Baltimore, Maryland
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Columbia
02-18-18 11:43 AM - Post#248462    
    In response to sparman

The thought has crossed my mind......

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3209

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
02-18-18 11:43 AM - Post#248463    
    In response to sparman

I'd be very surprised if Llewellyn were to back out at this point. However, the team does appear to have given up. That has to be a cause for concern among prospective recruits.

 
JadwinGeorge 
Junior
Posts: 274

Age: 70
Reg: 12-04-15
Re: Columbia
02-18-18 11:47 AM - Post#248465    
    In response to gokinsmen

Blaming Mitch Henderson is silly and pointless. He was COY last year. His 7 year Ivy record is rather impressive. Last night was as much a factor of a 55 minute game the night before and a 4 he bus ride. I will take my chances with Amir Bell on the line anytime. If the Penn kid makes a FT last year we are out of the tourney. If Stephens makes a FT at Harvard we go into OT there and probably lose. These things are just a matter of luck sometimes. Just not our year that's all. I am happy for Brian Earl and proud of his kids. I would love to see him get into the tournament but this year it's either Penn or Harvard. Whoever wins will deserve the title.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3209

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
02-18-18 11:52 AM - Post#248470    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

I don't pretend to know what's truly going on with Princeton. However, from the outside, this doesn't look like a team that's just having some unusually bad luck resulting in a terrible season-- we all know that happens now and then, even to the best coached programs. Rather, it looks like the wheels have come off. I really (honestly) hope we're not seeing a Joe Scott-esque meltdown here, but we might be.

 
JadwinGeorge 
Junior
Posts: 274

Age: 70
Reg: 12-04-15
02-18-18 12:38 PM - Post#248479    
    In response to Silver Maple

Scott presented a different set of issues. He totally lost the team. His histrionics and tantrums made it very difficult for his players to give maximum effort. I don't see any signs that the players have given up on Henderson.

 
JadwinGeorge 
Junior
Posts: 274

Age: 70
Reg: 12-04-15
02-18-18 12:53 PM - Post#248483    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

I would like to add that Joe Scott did a.nice job at Denver after leaving Princeton and has rejoined Bill Carmody at Holy Cross. He learned and he grew. Henderson is young and very bright. He is surrounded by a terrific support system in Jadwin and has tremendous resources.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 787

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
02-18-18 01:09 PM - Post#248485    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

I guess that anything is possible but the thought that Llewellyn will back out or that Mitch is a reincarnation of Joe Scott is really out there. Llewellyn has a perfect situation as to replacing Bell and the Tigers clearly need a point guard.

Henderson going from COY to Joe Scott -- crazy talk.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 5236

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-18-18 01:12 PM - Post#248486    
    In response to bradley

If Llewellyn were to have backed out, it would have likely been towards the end of the summer/fall when there was some buzz that he might. I'd feel pretty comfortable that he'll be there at this point.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2262

Reg: 11-23-04
Columbia
02-18-18 02:15 PM - Post#248493    
    In response to mrjames

I agree with early post: cut out the Chicken Little. Caca pasa. Life doesn't always turn out as expected. Next year is a new start.

For now, I'm pulling for the Perfect Storm: Tigers or another down team like Brown pulls a miraculous recovery, gets the 4th seed, knocks off Penn/harvard and then harvard/Penn (apologies to whichever is the Ivy Champ) for the NCAA, then gets a 16 play in. Everyone screams that we aren't ready for a silly tourney and we put it out of its misery until the IL can produce 2 solid bid teams.

Edited by Tiger69 on 02-18-18 02:21 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3512

Reg: 02-04-06
02-18-18 03:07 PM - Post#248497    
    In response to Tiger69

Keeping perspective is aided by looking at horrible recent losing streaks of previously ranked programs across the land. Many of those teams know they still have a shot at the NCAA tournament, but some may be sliding to oblivion (USC, Miami, SMU). I wonder if part of the reason for the apparent Tiger meltdown is that they expected to be so much better and are having trouble taking on the necessary scrappy mentality needed to get back to playing well and with confidence.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 787

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: Columbia
02-18-18 04:23 PM - Post#248506    
    In response to Tiger69

The really big game next weekend as to what team has the opportunity to have their kids play at the Big Dance is Friday night at Columbia vs. Saturday night at the Palestra. The Palestra should be buzzing Saturday night but probably at a very different pitch if there was no IL Tournament.

I hope that your scenario does not unfold as described as either Penn or Harvard players deserve to go to the NCAA Tournament if they win the regular season.

If Harvard wins next Saturday, they just may have to do it one more time on the road against Penn at IvyMadness. If Penn wins next Saturday night and loses at the IL Tournament, I hope that Coach Donahue and the AD can sit down with Foreman and comfort him after he busted his shoes for four years during some challenging times.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 11269

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Columbia
02-18-18 04:48 PM - Post#248509    
    In response to bradley

  • bradley Said:

If Penn wins next Saturday night and loses at the IL Tournament, I hope that Coach Donahue and the AD can sit down with Foreman and comfort him after he busted his shoes for four years during some challenging times.



If Penn wins on Saturday night, Foreman will finally, in all probability, get to play in a college postseason tourney of some kind.


 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 787

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: Columbia
02-18-18 05:02 PM - Post#248511    
    In response to penn nation

I guess your thinking is that the NIT experience replaces the dream that boys have of going to the Big Dance one time in their life and being on national TV. Great payback if the Quakers go 13-1 -- I guess??

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 11269

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Columbia
02-18-18 05:53 PM - Post#248518    
    In response to bradley

Considering where this program has been the past decade, and preseason predictions, if you would have told me before the year started that Penn would be going to the NIT?

A major, major coup and Foreman (and Wood) would be thrilled to get the chance.

Edited by penn nation on 02-18-18 05:54 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2262

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: Columbia
02-18-18 05:54 PM - Post#248519    
    In response to bradley

"I hope that your scenario does not unfold as either Penn or Harvard players deserve to go to the NCAA tournament if they win the regular season".

PRECISELY MY POINT! But, it will take tourney travesty to make the IL reconsider whether we should determine our NCAA rep with a two game champ or a 14 game champ. I don't give sh** if the teams out of the league race lose interest near the end of the season. We can still have the Tourney for a lesser prize than the NCAA bid which the regular champ rightfully deserves (as you pointed out).

 
Columbia Alum 
Junior
Posts: 247

Age: 32
Reg: 11-15-11
02-18-18 06:23 PM - Post#248527    
    In response to Tiger69

Makai mason is back, Yale will make the dance, my prediction.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4584

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Columbia
02-18-18 06:37 PM - Post#248528    
    In response to Tiger69

Apologies if we’ve gone around this bend before, but to me the argument about sending the “best” league rep rings very hollow. When every other league in the country uses a tournament, while we would be playing within the rules by sending the regular season champ, it feels like we’d be grabbing a less than sporting advantage by being the only conference in the country that doesn’t expose their regular season champ to the danger of a tourney upset. Yes, the other conferences have a choice, but it should probably tell us something that everyone else in the country chooses to have a tournament.

Watching Penn Columbia on Friday night, Isaac Cohen was lamenting how he never got to participate in the Ivy tournament.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4584

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Columbia
02-18-18 07:29 PM - Post#248531    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

Some thoughts here. I think it is more than just a “not our year” kind of thing. Yes, a bounce here or there wins the Brown and Cornell games. But overall Princeton has played poorly enough over the last 6 to drop from the top 120 in Pomeroy all the way to 200. That means they have played at a very low level for the last 6.

On the coaching, I think the current coaches in the league are very good. The one thing on Henderson is that it often seems like a work in progress. He seems to take some time getting to the right combo rather than having it in mind and building to it. Could be viewed as a strength or a weakness, I suppose.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2262

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: Columbia
02-18-18 09:06 PM - Post#248542    
    In response to SomeGuy

SG,
I agree that something must have happened to cause such a sudden change in performance over the past half dozen P games. But, I'm not going to jump to any conclusions about the coach. Perhaps, Penn discovered a weakness in our D that it and others have exploited. Our inability to adjust quickly enough has probably cost us any success for this season. We still have a successful coach and recruiter.
But, I stick to my guns on giving the bid to the regular season winner -- this year h or Penn. They are the class of the league this year and could possibly be denied by the Tourney as Princeton very nearly was last season. Only an injustice like, say, a fluky pair of wins by a 4 seed will open some people's eyes. Also, I cringe at your apparent assumption that if all other leagues have adopted a tournament to determine their representative, it is the best and only way. Sorry to sound arrogant, But, our 14 game method was both smarter and fairer. Why follow the lemmings?

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4584

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Columbia
02-18-18 09:12 PM - Post#248544    
    In response to Tiger69

But is it fair when the rest of the world doesn’t do it? It seems to me that is not “fair” to the rest of the participants. Would it be ok if we just sent our All-Ivy team?

As for the #4 team winning demonstrating the folly of the system, it won’t. There will be a certain small percentage of the time where the 4 Seed wins. That’s how it works. That’s the expectation, and part of what makes it fun.



 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3512

Reg: 02-04-06
02-18-18 09:43 PM - Post#248545    
    In response to SomeGuy

I don't see why others' voluntary choice to adopt a different strategy makes it "unfair" to pursue ours. Reminds me of an early "romantic" period in chess where it was considered unsporting to play any opening but the King's Gambit Accepted.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 5236

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-18-18 10:38 PM - Post#248550    
    In response to SRP

I think it would have been interesting if the NCAA made a rule stating that the bid had to be decided this way. I’m a firm believer that (assuming an objective/accurate selection process) if you want a bid, go earn one as an at large.

 
gopenngo 
Masters Student
Posts: 438

Reg: 01-30-06
02-19-18 02:23 AM - Post#248564    
    In response to mrjames

A previous poster indicated player enthusiasm for Ivy Madness. As a low major league, the players' preferences should be given considerable weight. It's about them and not us. We're never going to see an Ivy final four team again, so why not maximize the experience and fun-level of the scholar athletes league-wide.

I had originally considered the tournament capitulation to be a bad thing, but I hadn't given much thought to what the players thought, league wide.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3512

Reg: 02-04-06
02-19-18 01:27 PM - Post#248605    
    In response to gopenngo

Strongly disagree with Mike about an all at-large field. Both the way schedules and conferences work and the romance of the thing mean it should be more like the FA Cup.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 5236

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-19-18 03:45 PM - Post#248622    
    In response to SRP

Oh - I definitely don't think it should be an all at-large field. Every conference should be represented (in fact, every conference should go straight into the field instead of this PIG nonsense).

At the same time, I'd never argue that a 15-seed is more "deserving" of being in the tourney than the first at-large team left out. It's a gift, given to all conferences, because the excitement of having a rep from all conferences is seen as a value add for the tournament. It's a gift given to all conferences because March is madness and every conference is a mini-bracket funneling toward this overall championship. While the NCAA allows each conference to award that bid however it sees fit, I think there's something sporting about participating in the same conference tournament to NCAA tournament structure that embodies the rest of March Madness.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4584

Reg: 11-22-04
02-19-18 05:40 PM - Post#248644    
    In response to mrjames

I’m still in favor of having the NCAAs play down from 256.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3209

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
02-19-18 05:59 PM - Post#248648    
    In response to SomeGuy

It would certainly be a spectacle-- I'll say that.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2262

Reg: 11-23-04
02-19-18 06:25 PM - Post#248653    
    In response to SomeGuy

I like the idea of the 256 field, too - maybe with a first round loser's bracket or double elimination. Every conference has its own season that is over by the end of January. NCAA begins in February and everything is over by mid March. Think of all the extra time players will have for classes!

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 11269

Reg: 12-02-04
02-19-18 07:28 PM - Post#248661    
    In response to Silver Maple

  • Silver Maple Said:
It would certainly be a spectacle-- I'll say that.



Maybe not. Did you see the Man City FA Cup game today?


 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 787

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
02-19-18 08:39 PM - Post#248668    
    In response to SomeGuy

Based on Kenpom, Drexel vs. Virginia -- 40 point spread -- sounds exciting. NCAA can give out participants trophies at the conclusion of the game.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4584

Reg: 11-22-04
02-19-18 09:08 PM - Post#248669    
    In response to bradley

I’m not sure that fans of a one bid conference should be making that argument. There usually is a team around 256 kenpom in the tournament (and sometimes lower). Personally i think there is nothing better than the first round of the tournament. I think playing from 256 (or 128) would give more chances for smaller schools to pull off upsets and would be great theater.

 
sparman 
Masters Student
Posts: 875
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
02-19-18 11:13 PM - Post#248674    
    In response to SomeGuy

I agree re: first (and second) round; I find regionals and finals a letdown. Of course this means not relegating "minor" conferences to the Omega Fraternity rush side room. Let them in and give them a chance instead of agonizing over which .500 power conference is in the top 50 teams (Jay Bilas, please sit down and shut up). But we all should know by now the big conferences are only looking for more ways to get their 6-8 team into the Dance.

 
Penndemonium 
Masters Student
Posts: 726

Reg: 11-29-04
02-20-18 02:13 PM - Post#248706    
    In response to sparman

I've long held the belief that the NCAA should assign a certain number of bids to conferences prior to the conference championships. If a conference wants to send a team that didn't qualify in the regular season but won their conference tournament, then they should bump one of the teams within their conference. That way we wouldn't wind up with more slots for the major conferences and it would give more small school teams a chance - even a small one.

 
sparman 
Masters Student
Posts: 875
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
Columbia
02-20-18 02:31 PM - Post#248707    
    In response to Penndemonium

That makes sense, and I'll go further to say they should assign a number of slots before the season begins, which will make the regular season more significant.

But then this is all a pipe dream.

 
westcoast 
Freshman
Posts: 86

Reg: 03-08-16
Re: Columbia
02-20-18 03:11 PM - Post#248708    
    In response to sparman

I don't think that is a good idea. In past years, there have been really good mid-major teams like Gonzaga or Wichita State that were much better than everyone else in their conference. If they had lost in their conference tournament, they shouldn't be left out of the NCAA tournament because it was decided to be a one-bid league beforehand. And their conferences shouldn't automatically become two-bid leagues either - what if the favorite does win the conference tournament?

The Selection Committee needs flexibility to deal with situations like this.

 
sparman 
Masters Student
Posts: 875
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
Re: Columbia
02-20-18 09:26 PM - Post#248734    
    In response to westcoast

I understand the point, but I'd rather suffer through a second team from a "lesser" conference in place of a 6th place team from a "major" conference. And they can hold a couple places in reserve to protect against major injustice.

 
westcoast 
Freshman
Posts: 86

Reg: 03-08-16
Re: Columbia
02-20-18 11:05 PM - Post#248742    
    In response to sparman

I think the best tournament is by starting with the 32 conference champions, and then filling in the bracket with the 32 (or 36) best remaining teams. The problem with the current system is how they pick the best remaining teams. I would rather work on a better system for that, rather than forcing a fixed number from any conference. That will just lead to more problems.

 
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